Kim (00:00:02) - If you have career levels, take a look at that next career level and start thinking about the behaviors that are expected and the outcomes that are expected. If these are the skills I need, if these are the behaviors that I need to show, what can I relentlessly pursue to prove that I have that?

Ariana (00:00:24) - Kim, thanks so much for coming on to Secret Ops. I cannot wait to have this conversation because you're coming from the world of people operations, and you've done that at a couple of roles across many businesses. Survey Gizmo, Patreon, NerdWallet. Many, many more. Clearly, you have a passion for it. And to kick this off, where do you think that comes from? Because many people, I would say, want to stay far away from this, but you gravitate toward it naturally. So what is it about people, operations, human resources that draws you in?

Kim (00:00:57) - You mean not everyone is completely in love with the field of HR? I don't, I don't get it!

Ariana (00:01:04) - I know it's absolutely crazy.

Kim (00:01:06) - Wild for me. Now, I actually got started because I had a really terrible interaction with an HR leader. I was applying for a job. I was a credit short. Yeah, I was a credit short on my degree. And she called me into her office, and she yelled at me and, like, told me I would never make it in business. And just…it reminded me of when teachers are like, oh, I got into teaching because I had a terrible teacher and I was like, work shouldn't be like this. We have to work so many hours of our lives. And there is a responsibility from the HR department to curate an environment where people can thrive. And that planted a seed in me that just didn't go away.

Ariana (00:02:04) - As soon as you said the rebranding happened, I immediately felt tense, because I've also had to have those people conversations and I'm like, hey, can you come for a talk? And they're like, what's wrong? You know, it's like that feeling, that doomsday feeling of walking into an office.

Ariana (00:02:21) - And I feel like people operations gets a really bad rap. Like, I really, I feel like there's been this sort of, like, antiquated way of thinking about this, and there's a whole new wave of people trying to reinvent it and think about it from a culture-first standpoint, what would you say is your approach to people ops? Like, where would you say is like your North Star to guide your work?

Kim (00:02:47) - Yeah, so I did a lot of work on my own…it's such a big one. I did a lot of work on my own personal values, like what's important to me in day to day life. Kind curiosity is a big one for me. And you only get one like, we're only here one time, so make it worth it. So that really laid a foundation for my guiding light. And what I try to do within my companies and within my clients is really like, build a place employees can thrive, which means they need information.

Kim (00:03:26) - I'm huge on transparency. They need to understand the decisions that were made, and really, like, we need to have a good time. It's a job. It's a job. Like, can we construct an environment where you can have fun at work or at least thrive?

Ariana (00:03:46) - Transparency is, I think, such a fine line, and trying to find the sweet spot with transparency is hard because there's full transparency and then there's like varying degrees of transparency, and then there's being completely opaque. When you're aiming for transparency, which I think a lot of the newer flavor of people ops and HR is trying to do. How do you strike that happy balance?

Kim (00:04:13) - Yeah. So first off, your information is your own. I don't want to be the person…I know some companies do full salary transparency and you can see who makes what. That's not for me. Like your information is your own. So any sensitive information that's off the table, I'm not sharing that. However, business information or considerations that went into making a tough decision, maybe we decided to get better benefits than a larger compensation increase budget.

Kim (00:04:46) - That's important. Or why we're shifting the strategy of the company because that affects people's day to day lives. So really, I think if it's affecting somebody's day to day life, they should know the how and the why behind it and to go to the next level if they can give input into it. So if we can start socializing ideas, projects, directions in advance and get feedback and incorporate the feedback into the final product, I mean, you're well on your way, maybe not fully transparent, but you're building a lot of trust.

Ariana (00:05:21) - Yeah. So I've experimented with different ways of capturing feedback and with varying degrees of success. What are some tips that you've learned in capturing feedback, like, for example, an engagement survey, you know, biannual? Everybody kind of hates it. But actually it's really important to to do the engagement survey and to give your feedback. But there's a like, you know, team check ins and micro kind of check ins. So what have you found to be really successful that balances getting those insights without completely, you know, numbing people's brains?

Kim (00:05:55) - Again, people don't love HR as much as HR loves H.R.

Kim (00:05:59) - Yes, engagement surveys are important. Please fill them out. But if you're not getting that data back, that your people operations team is responsible for sharing that data and opening up a conversation. But beyond that, we executive teams, people, leaders, HR, we have a responsibility to meet the employee where they're at. So think about ways and opportunities on how to get that feedback differently and offer it in different ways. So some people really love commenting on docs like, oh, I want to read this, I want to chew on it, and then I want to leave comments. That's feedback. Some people want to do it in small, intimate team settings. Some people want to do it in an open office hour sort of forum. So when you think about all the different personalities that make up an organization, you know, create paths for the vast majority of people to give that feedback, it takes more time. It's a little bit more resource intensive, but gosh, it's so worth it.

Ariana (00:07:08) - Yeah, there's a difficulty that I find. Right. Because anything that to do well with people in the world of business, I find that it always takes more time than you think it will., and that sometimes you have great payoff and sometimes you're just sort of left with very little. Oh, there's like a caveat, right. I find that people really care in those leadership positions. They really want voices to be heard. But because there's this dynamic of, I don't know, it's how you build trust with your team. What are some key components of building trust? I mean, we talked about getting feedback, making sure you have different vessels of feedback, being open and transparent about initiatives that the company is doing and how it's affecting the team, like what are some ways of building trust in that relationship that you found really successful?

Kim (00:08:04) - Oh, yeah, I think accountability is a huge one. You have to own your decisions.

Kim (00:08:11) - Even if you didn't make them, you have to own them and that's really difficult for like your middle layer of managers or maybe your first time managers. So really working with various layers of the organization to help them understand the decisions, so they can communicate them with their team. And, you know, giving insight into the how and the why. Also, I think you have to give trust to get it. There was a moment in time where everyone kind of demanded trust, and that doesn't work. But what you can do is start pushing decisions down to the lowest layer of the organization. The people who do the work day to day can probably make the vast majority of their decisions, make them smaller and iterate quicker, and have dedicated time for growth conversations. So not just feedback. Here's what your peers' team is saying about you, but here's how you can really lean into your skill sets and grow. Here's what operating at the next level would look like and I think those conversations and the outcomes of them.

Kim (00:09:25) - Right. Don't tell someone they're going to get promoted and then never promote them but those conversations, seeing the outcomes and really opening up discussions, I think is a great, a great way to start. Oh, and then write everything down. I'm so tired of, like, losing things in games of telephone especially in remote environments or distributed environments. Write it down have it somewhere accessible so people can reference it. And I think those are some really great ways to start.

Ariana (00:09:57) - Yeah. I have a question on the professional development side of things, because you're totally right. It can't just be…here's a review of your performance and then like, that's it. Like it needs to be like, here's where you're at. Here's where we see you growing. Here's how we can help you grow. What I've discovered, though, is that people sometimes overly rely on their managers or the business to direct that professional development. Meaning like they want the company to lead that for them.

Ariana (00:10:29) - In some cases, the company does in other cases, like you've got to drive that. So where do you think that responsibility lies? Or how do you think that partnership with businesses can work? How can people take responsibility for their professional development but also hold companies accountable for supporting them in that?

Kim (00:10:49) - Oh, that's such a juicy topic, I love it.. I mean, I think very early in my career, someone said “we’ll give you the car of your professional development, but you have to drive it”. And that just stuck with me so deeply. So if you, dear listeners, if you're out there gunning for that next promotion one, take a look at that. If you have career levels, take a look at that next career level and start thinking about the behaviors that are expected and the outcomes that are expected. So I'm sure you have an idea of what your competencies are. Continue to grow your skill set, but start operating at that next level, either with internal or external partners.

Kim (00:11:43) - Ask your manager. Hey, what could I do? What would you want to see in a senior manager? And how can I better display those skills again, coming in…one of my values again, kind curiosity, coming in with a curious mindset and then really thinking about, okay. If these are the skills I need, if these are the behaviors that I need to show, what can I relentlessly pursue to prove that I have that? Doing something once is not ownership of a competency. It's a first time rough draft, but continue to, like, display those skills, continue to like, grow yourself. I'd say you're pretty heavy handed in your own development, but be loud about it. Some people call it managing up, some people call it a brown nosing. Sometimes, maybe. But really, like, work with your leadership team as a partner, exploring the development. Lean on your career ladders if you've got an LND program, if it's a stipend, if it's classes, try and take advantage of it and marry it with the expectations that are listed in your company's competencies.

Kim (00:13:06) - Yeah. Drive that car.

Ariana (00:13:10) - I love that because also sometimes, you know, I've been in the manager position where I have a team member. They're looking to develop skills. I can only give them so much access and so much time to be able to develop skills that they're not walking in with. And I've seen an interesting sort of dichotomy, which is people who become complacent in their own development. I can't push them further. I can't I can't push a boulder up a hill, like they've got to do that for themselves. Whereas people who are hungry to learn, they're proving time and time again after multiple iterations that they want to learn this thing is really exciting because then I can help easily promote them or shift them to teams that they want to work in. And I find that with operations, a lot of people with tons of different skill sets start in ops and then they find their niche. So the more that I can see what that niche might be, I can push them into those categories with those experiences that they're getting.

Ariana (00:14:09) - This gets me to maybe like a hot question, which is I think that there needs to kind of be that sort of honest internal look when you are within a business and let's say you've grown as far as the business can have you grow. So in some businesses, you're not going to get to where you want to go and then some people become frustrated, angry because they're not getting what they want. But the reality is they're not going to get what they want from that business, and they have to look somewhere else. I'm sure you've seen that in your career and have had to have some hard conversations. So what are some pro tips to give people who might be in those shoes? They might not like where they're at in the business. They wish they could grow, but they can't. You know, where would you sort of give them some pro tips to try it out and move forward with that?

Kim (00:15:05) - Ah so good, so good. But first, I want to go back to what you said about the two, like, employee profiles.

Kim (00:15:13) - Some people aren't in a growth stage. And I think it's important to remember that. I think about, you know, folks who maybe they're new parents, maybe they're going back to school, maybe they're in a season of life that growing professionally just isn't on the docket right now. First off, that's okay. Like it's okay for one part of your life to stagnate if other things are growing wildly and I think it's important for managers and leaders to recognize that, like, hey, you're not ready for this. Take some time here and, like, buckle down or get comfortable in this role while everything else happens. Now, for those hungry folks who are so ready to grow. And then they kind of hit their ceiling at an org that happens like. People and companies grow at different rates.. You may have hit your ceiling…for those folks, I'd say start thinking about what energizes you in your role, start building more skills. Just because you're not getting promoted doesn't mean you can't invest in yourself.

Kim (00:16:26) - So start looking at maybe self-paced trainings or webinars or courses that are exciting and related to what you want next. And then if you can start getting mentors, folks who you look up to in your career and ask them like, hey, how should I think about what's next? And then start interviewing, you know, it's okay if if you have outgrown your role and your company doesn't have anything else, graduate on to the next one. Leave in great standing. You know, don't burn bridges because maybe you can come back around again. Needs change over time. And on the other side of that coin, if I can be so bold, if your role has outgrown you, if your company has grown so fast that you can't keep up with your expectations, that's okay too. It doesn't mean you're failing. It means something is growing faster than you can. Take a minute, reset and do the same exercise. What do I enjoy about my role? Where can I invest in my skill growth and what's next? Those are both really true and valid and accepted career paths, and I've been in those situations both times.

Ariana (00:17:44) - I have too, and it's interesting because I, I've been with the business that maybe I've just outgrown, or maybe I've sort of hit the ceiling of development. And because I didn't take that time to really look inward and say, what energizes me, what excites me, I started to become better at the company and it was like, so not about the company, but it was more about me. And that's something that I have found with other people as well. I mean, if we think about 2020, 2021, I mean, everybody's burnt out and the bitterness can really be toxic for yourself and your personal life and your work life and the business. You have to have those, like, real introspective moments to say, is it really about the company or is it more about me and just feeling like I'm not in the right place, which is hard to have. I mean, the best thing that I've found is having a community around me that sort of checks that, what are some ways to get an honest opinion around how you're feeling?

Ariana (00:18:47) - Like, we control our emotions. Like what are some tips that you found? Like, how do you get people around you to really support you in your development, but in an honest way? Is it colleagues? Is it friends? Is it family? Is it a combination? Is it certain personalities that you're looking for to give you that feedback?

Kim (00:19:08) - You know. You know, when you were talking about being bitter in an organization. I had similar issues. But instead of staying and being bitter, I was a bit of a job hopper and like, oh, that's not, that's not where you want to be. But because instead of getting bitter, I'll just leave and it, it's had its fair share of impacts. So what I have found…life since pandemic, is really investing in community. For a long time I don't think HR really had community. We were very much like, this is our organization and we do it the best.

Kim (00:19:48) - And if I tell you my secrets, I won't have a competitive advantage anymore. Which was weird, but now I think we're seeing so many, so many people operations communities. All these communities are springing up. I was in one sponsored by Retreat called People Ops Leaders like, these were areas where I was surrounded by peers or folks above me, or folks just new to the career. And like, being in that sort of environment and having people who uniquely understand my struggles, “oh, my compensation philosophy roll out failed”, or “everyone's so angry on the engagement survey”. Like, you can't vent about that to your head of sales or your head of engineering. So really, having a community that uniquely understands your issues and can coach you and counsel you and give their perspective. It calmed me down in so many ways. Like it extinguished that, like anger fire, right? And just like, helped me be.

Kim (00:21:04) - Yeah. Like helped me be more objective. Help me slow down and look at it from different perspectives and realize like, gosh, going back to HR is always the messenger of the bad news. Like it helped me understand better the thrash that people might feel. So I don't know if that answered your question, but find your community, find people who understand.

Ariana (00:21:31) - It's same with operations. I thought for so long I was like the operator in a business because like me, I work in startups and small to medium sized businesses, so I'm usually the first operator or the second one to join the team. And it's very isolating and it can feel like you're going crazy a little bit because you're like, if you're if you're not setting boundaries and expectations and really understanding how the operation piece needs to fit into the business pie, you could just run yourself ragged, I think same with people ops and HR, that's quite emotional so there is that going to an outside community to talk about those things, see where things are common, get different hacks of how to learn.

Ariana (00:22:13) - I mean, that's why Secret Ops began to begin with, is like, how do we get all these people to talk about this thing that we're doing, right? Like, how do we do that? I want to take a slight turn into like the behind the scenes of people ops HR. I feel like y'all take the brunt of so much stuff on a daily basis. You're like angels with wings, and we just don't really see it. What do you think people get wrong about human resources and people operations? Like, what would you like to set the record straight on?

Kim (00:22:52) - Oh, gosh. So many things. One, you know, don't shoot the messenger. Oftentimes we're the messenger, especially in hard or difficult conversations. If there's a layoff, if there's a restructure, if there's a termination, as much as we try and work through leaders, we typically own that message. Recognize a lot more has gone into that. And just that message, you know, we are looking at data and salaries and financial outlooks and trying to understand the best course for the business while really, really fighting for humans.

Kim (00:23:40) - Every people leader I know has a responsibility to protect the business. And we do that by doing the best we can for the employees and really protecting the employees. We're not the police. We're not out to get you. We're not trying to, like, do a gotcha. We're trying our best. You know, this is our job too. We're trying our best. We have growth areas. You know, we're faced with new and sometimes scary situations, too. I think that if your people ops person can have empathy, some of that being returned is great. The difficult conversations are difficult. It hurts us, too.

Ariana (00:24:24) - How do you protect your, you know, personal well-being within that professional context? Because you are, you know, the frontlines of a lot of emotional conversations with the work. So what have you done to sort of, like, keep your inner peace, despite a lot of outer turmoil?

Kim (00:24:45) - Yeah. It took me so long to understand that, like, and my friends and my husband and people close to me would, would know when things were stressful at work because it does really, like, get so deep within you.

Kim (00:25:02) - Therapy helped, I won't lie. Like going to a professional who understands mental wellness like that is just like going to a physical therapist who understands physical wellness. That was huge. Learning how to say no sometimes, not all the time, but learning how to, like, push back, say no, and really be like a strategic partner, right? Like, sure, CEO, we can do that. But let's explore all of the outcomes and let's prepare for them. It’ss helpful. I mean, sometimes you just have bad days. You know, there's been times where either after a restructure or folks have been impacted like a genuine bout of depression happens again, go back to your mental wellness, find your community and don't blame yourself. I think we feel often the sense of responsibility for the humans and the workforce that you can't…it's hard not to blame yourself. But if you can recognize, like, hey, this was a product of so many business decisions, and so many things that were out of my control.

Kim (00:26:16) - That's helpful. Don't get too down on yourself. It's just a job. She says ever so nonchalantly.

Ariana (00:26:24) - As I'm crying in the corner. No, I mean, I've been through it. You know, I would take my work home with me every day. Like, I think it was really difficult for me to let go of the work, and it really affected my personal life and my personal relationships, your sleep, all these other things. Because you're right. You do take on a lot of personal responsibility. I also found that just literally having space between work and life and having a transitional period, especially dealing with people's conflicts, is really important. Like when I was in New York, I would literally walk home a half hour from the office to home instead of taking the train just to decompress and sort of like get all of the emotion out in a physical capacity, you know, now it's very different because I work entirely remotely. And that separation is harder.

Ariana (00:27:20) - But it'll be like, all right, let's take the dog on a walk. Let me do a workout after work to sort of, like, physically disrupt my synapses from like, continuing to think about the thing or obsess about feeling like I let somebody down. Have you found that as well?

Kim (00:27:37) - Yes. And I find…one similarly, I used to walk home or take a long subway ride because it was like it was a transition period. Now I am fortunate I, I have an upstairs office, so, like, the stairway feels like a transitional portal to me. But also I have found hobbies that require my full attention, help me decompress. So I do circus and aerial arts as a workout. And when you're 20ft in the air with just, you know, a piece of tissue or silk wrapped around you, you better be not thinking about work.

Kim (00:28:31) - And it just provides a mental transition. I also really love cooking, and I'm not like, I just zone in on cooking really easily, I think. Yeah, but truly, like, it forces that stuff out of your brain. And when your brain is bored, I really believe that's when you come up with more creative solutions, like you're doing your future professional self a service by taking that break.

Ariana (00:28:57) - And it's interesting too, because I've had more physical jobs where I'm standing on my feet. I'm dealing with customers face to face every day. Decompressing for me looked incredibly different, right? Like versus being on a computer screen all day. That looks different too. So if also, I guess a way of if you're like, hey, I'm on my feet all day with my job, I'm doing something super physical. I can't decompress by going on a walk like I'm tired. There are those other things right to find. It's about giving yourself that release of the opposite thing that you're doing.

Ariana (00:29:30) - And that's the thing that you have to find. For me, pottery became a really important hobby for me because it's messy. You can't like, you can't be perfect, you know, and it's not supposed to be. It's handmade. So like get in the mud. Whereas with operations things have to be quite efficient and smart. And so finding the juxtaposition to what you do on a day to day basis can be really helpful, I found in different roles that I've worked in. It's fun too. It's a good time.

Kim (00:30:00) - Oh my gosh, I love that. Like get messy because you can't like…yeah, I feel similar about circus and aerial arts. Like be creative, be flowy, be pretty, make mistakes. Because if you do that in compliance, you're screwed.

Ariana (00:30:15) - Totally. And again, your day to day is changed. So sometimes that release has to change like that. You know that I like cooking too is a big thing for me. Baking and making a mess of stuff is really helpful for my brain.

Ariana (00:30:28) - I do want to go back to something that you talked about, which is becoming that strategic partner. And I think this is across any role in any business. There's sort of an entry level version of the role that you're doing, and then you sort of can work your way up to maybe managing or being more like mid-level, and then at some point you sort of dip into more of the strategy of what you're doing on a tactical space. And I really liked what you said, which is becoming a strategic partner. First of all, it's its own skill set. But becoming a strategic partner within people operations requires my assumption is a high level of amazing communication, being able to think three steps ahead, being able to understand compliance. So if we have people that are listening that eventually want to become that strategic partner within people operations, how would you help them transition into that way of thinking?

Kim (00:31:29) - Oh man, I, I love that you're asking this. When I was first moving from an HR generalist role to an HR business partner role, where you're supposed to be more strategic, it just eluded me so much, I was like, what do you mean? Everyone's like, be more strategic? And I'm like, but how?

Kim (00:31:55) - So first off, if it feels ambiguous and like fuzzy and cloudy, oh my gosh, I, I feel so deeply for you because I get that. It is not in my nature. What I found the tips that I will share that I found were start looking ahead with all of your work. And not just three months. Not just six months. How is your program today that you're building engagement survey compensation? How is that going to benefit the business in the next 16, 18 months? And if you can use some data to help those predictions or help tell your story, you're on a good path. Also start paying attention to what your executives are saying about the future of the business and start thinking about how you can build plans to get that. So let's say you're opening up a new business line, and it's I don't know, AI focused. That seems to be the hot new thing now. Start looking at the skill sets within your organization. Do you have, you know, the required skill sets or are you going to need to hire? Can you upskill people? Can you add in some development programs?

So by the time this new thing launchess your human resources are prepared for it. I think those are great. And then I think, helping your partners, helping your client group, your managers, your executives. Really think through the impact of their decisions as they make them. You know, what happens in 4 to 6 months? And if it's a difficult decision. Let's go five layers deep. How do we help this land well? How do we support people as they experience any thrash? Those are great places to start. And I will put an open call out to all of your listeners. I constantly feel like I need to be more strategic, so if you have thoughts, I would love to hear them too.

Ariana (00:34:04) - I'm with you. I also, I find that, you know, I have my personal experience where a lot of that strategy sort of comes from because I've, I've literally just messed up. And then I learned the hard way. Why did I do that in the future? The other thing that I found is there are a ton of frameworks like acronyms and different like ways of being able to view operations, people ops that sometimes that's where I start as well is like, okay, what is this different structure of approaching this thing because there's so many, if you think about it like agile, scrum, all these different pieces, right? There are different ways of working, but there's also different ways of approaching getting feedback from, you know, your team members, a pulse survey and engagement survey, other things, you know, retreats, Fri-yays like, what are all these different pieces that you could potentially plug into the strategy piece to try? Also, I think things can be an experiment.

Ariana (00:35:01) - Oftentimes when you roll something out, you feel like it needs to be quite official, but you also just say, hey, listen, for a month, we're going to see if we like this daily sprint check-in thing, and then we'll get your feedback. And if we don't we'll like yeah, let go of it. If we do, great. But let's just experiment as a team so we can get your feedback and see if we're digging it. There's also a lot of freedom in that because again, building trust, it's a great way I have found to build trust is like, let's just try it. If it's horrible, it's horrible and we stop it. If it's awesome, let's keep it rolling. Yeah.

Kim (00:35:33) - Oh gosh. You hit on like a gold mine of how people operations should be functioning when rolling out new programs like everything is an experiment. It might work. We're taking a scientific approach here. You know, I've got data, I've got background, I've even got some playbooks. But this organization is unique.

Kim (00:35:55) - So we need to account for the uniqueness. We need to figure out what's going to work. And I would say when you're rolling out those experiments, try and tell the team in advance like this is what success means. This is what failure means. This is when you'll hear back about the experiment. Here's how long we're going to run it for, and here's how and where you can give feedback. Again, meeting folks where they are to get that input. Everything is an experiment. Just because we're doing it today with 250 people doesn't mean it's going to work when we're a thousand people. So keep that consistent change in your life.

Ariana (00:36:37) - It allows you to stay fresh, too, right? Like building culture is a part of people operations, too. You've got to keep it fresh. You've got to keep that feedback cycle going and you've got to try new things. Technologies are changing how we can interact with each other, each other. When we hire global teams. That changes how we also need to interact and communicate with each other.

Ariana (00:36:57) - All of these pieces are a part of that too. And building the strategy and experimenting and trying new things. It's also just saying, let's just give it a shot, y'all. I do love the idea of like, this is what success looks like. This is what failure looks like. This is the time frame. This is how we're going to capture your feedback.. Our door is always open if you want to give early feedback. There's just setting up those clear expectations then allows people to actually commit to giving it a try as well. I don't know if you found this, but like if I don't set up those expectations, like sometimes people just don't engage in the experiment and then you don't have any results. You don't know if it worked or if it didn't.

Kim (00:37:35) - Yeah. Ambiguity is the failure, right? Like that's why I'm an advocate for writing it down. Like when people don't know what's going on or what's expected of them, or how this is being evaluated.

Kim (00:37:49) - Like, I've got so much of my other work to do. Like, I don't care about your silly HR experiment, you know, or your silly operations experiment, I get it. I really get that. So like, just like restaurants have menus, give them something to look at so they understand the nuances.

Ariana (00:38:10) - I love that. Before we jump into wrapping up, learning a little bit more about you as a human being, if people are listening to you and they're like, all right, these highs and lows, I want to get into this world. What do you think is the best first step to do that?

Kim (00:38:26) - Oh gosh, there's so many cool ways to do it. I think first off, you will find so many people who fell into people operations. And maybe it's the same in the broader operations world, like, oh, I accidentally became a recruiter and now I'm here. Was that your path? Accidental?

Ariana (00:38:45) - Totally. I didn't even know it was a name until someone was like, hey, here's a title.

Ariana (00:38:50) - Does this title make sense for you? And I'm like, oh, operations is the thing! Yeah, sure. Let's go for it.

Kim (00:38:56) - Yeah.

Kim (00:38:57) - So that to say, like, I don't think you need a formal education background. Now, that being said, there's a lot of cool stuff out there if you're interested in moving into a people ops world. There's some stuff that's coming up like Peak aHRir by a phenomenal group of humans: Kim, Roger, Morgan Williams and Catalina Coleman. It's really great, almost like an accelerator program, there's the People Leaders Accelerator Program, there are a lot of online educational resources that you can look into and also start talking to folks. Start reaching out to your people ops team if you have one, reach out to people on LinkedIn. If you have questions for me, I'm happy to answer them. I think curiosity will get you very far. And then if you want to know the nitty gritty of the compliance and laws and really like that operational backbone of HR, you could at least study for some of our certification tests.

Kim (00:40:07) - There's an associate professional HR certification that doesn't require, like, a lot of background. Or if you want to just go for the learning, you can look at firms for that's the society for Human Resources professional HR certification. Even just the study materials are a wealth of knowledge and yeah, and maybe like I see a lot of volunteer positions for HR folks. Maybe there's an opportunity there, like go in somewhere as an HR coordinator, start learning the paperwork, the workflows, and then grow from there, I love that.

Ariana (00:40:46) - That was a ton of resources I didn't know about. So we'll make sure to include those in the description field for everybody as well. Those are fantastic.

Kim (00:40:55) - Yeah, there's a bunch of stuff out there. I'm sure Google has more.

Ariana (00:41:02) - Well, let's get to some rapid fire questions to learn more about you, Kim, as a human being. So I'm going to throw them your way and you just go with whatever's at the top of your head.

Ariana (00:41:10) - So first one is what is the favorite part of your day?

Kim (00:41:14) - Oh, I love the mornings. I'm fortunate to be able to just get up with the sun whenever that is. So it's winter. I'm sleeping in a little bit. But then I get up, I make myself a latte. The best pandemic purchase I had was a Bambino plus espresso machine.

Ariana (00:41:32) - That's the one I've been looking at!

Kim (00:41:33) - Oh, it's so good. I've had it for four years now. It was the best purchase. I use macadamia nut milk. It's a nice little way to have a treat and then I take my dog outside. We do a walk in the garden. The garden, my backyard. It has some fruit trees. And just kind of greet the day.. There was a wonderful woman in my career. Her name was Jody, and she was like, every morning I greet the day. And that stuck with me so deeply. I'm like, yeah.

Kim (00:42:04) - And it really is a wonderful way to clear your mind. Like, be thankful for things outside of work and get your head right before diving in.

Ariana (00:42:14) - What is the best purchase that you have made under $50?

Kim (00:42:19) - A garlic press? A garlic press. I hate chopping garlic, but I like fresh garlic. That singular kitchen tool is great. There you go. $50 garlic press.

Ariana (00:42:32) - Love it. What is something that makes you little-kid happy?

Kim (00:42:41) - Surprises! Outside of plants, I love plants. Yeah, yeah, I love a little surprises. Like the other day, my girlfriend dropped off some jam on my front porch, and I was like, ooh! Like, just be-bopped around. I yeah, I love silly things. Little cute, like surprise and delight sort of things. I just get giddy over it.

Ariana (00:43:04) - I am with you. I'll tell you. My favorite surprise was when my husband got me the label maker I wanted.

Ariana (00:43:10) - Even though it was on my wishlist, it was still a surprise and it was absolutely fabulous. I'm so excited.

Kim (00:43:16) - It's like, it's the surprise you knew I wanted, I love it.

Ariana (00:43:23) - What is the most important lesson you've learned so far in your life?

Kim (00:43:30) - Take care of yourself and foster the relationships of the people who love you.

Ariana (00:43:36) - It's really sweet.

Kim (00:43:38) - I'm big. I'm a big, like, crunchy hippie in that. You know, I think there's just so much we let life pass us by. And then, you know, I'm totally, like, negating the rapid fire. I'll stop. No, I love it, I love it.

Ariana (00:43:51) - Last one is, if you were to go back in time and talk to your younger self at the beginning of their career, what is a piece of advice that you would give them?

Kim (00:44:01) - Oh, it's not going to be what you think it is, but hang on, hang on. Go through it. You'll be alright. And take some mental breaks when you need them.

Ariana (00:44:17) - Kim, this has been so fun. From our first conversation. You just have such wonderful energy, and I really appreciate you sort of bringing in all of the lessons from your experience to help us and bring to life people operations in a more human way. So just thank you so much. If people want to find you and they want to ask you questions or they have other things strategically that they want to nerd out with, with you, where can people find you?

Kim (00:44:42) - Yeah, LinkedIn is the best place. LinkedIn.com. Kim-Minik. There's a picture that apparently doesn't look like me, but also has a dog in it, so yeah. Please reach out. I would love to chat.

Ariana (00:44:58) - Beautiful. Kim, thank you again. You are such a joy. And a bright light on such a cold, wintery day. Secret ops listeners, thank you so much for listening. Please remember to subscribe wherever you find your podcasts.

Ariana (00:45:10) - Also, we've got all of the video content as well on our YouTube channel, so check that out., and we'll see you next time.