Diana (00:00:02) - It's also important that we preserve culture and productivity over process, because something that you said earlier, like in operations, is often closely tied or associated with process. And while that's true, we have to understand within the context of a culture that we work in, and also ensure that we're being productive and not introduce process for the sake of process.

Ariana (00:00:27) - Welcome to Secret Ops, the podcast uncovering the world of operations, one episode at a time. I'm your host, Ariana Cofone, and today's guest is Diana Soler, director of product operations at ascent. Now I love operations. I am an operator through and through, but the coolest part about being an operator is how many different specializations live underneath that umbrella. And one of those that we have yet to touch base on is product operations. And I feel like it's become more known within the business world because product operations is very much tied to digital products. So Diana is a perfect person to help us not only unpack what product operations are, but also what it's not, and how you can get into that world if you're interested.

Ariana (00:01:18) - Let's check it out. Thank you so much for joining me on Secret Ops today. I'm so glad that we can talk about all of the things in product operations, because I have a confession after dozens of episodes, we have never talked about product operations.

Diana (00:01:35) - But you've heard about it or not yet. Of course. Yes.

Ariana (00:01:38) - And what we want to do is, I think, bridge the gap today on the difference between operations versus product ops. You and I discussed this when we were chatting initially. Yeah. And I feel like I've just been doing the audience a disservice because product ops is around us everywhere, but we don't really see it unless you're in that world. So do you mind just bringing to life you know, what you do in product operations, what that looks like on a day to day basis for us?

Diana (00:02:05) - Absolutely. Well, first I just want to say, Ariana, thank you so much. I'm really, really excited to be here. This is actually only my second podcast, so I still feel like I'm a bit new to this, but you can't go wrong when you're talking about something that you feel really, really passionate about.

Diana (00:02:22) - That's true. Thank you for this amazing opportunity. Okay, so I mean, where do we begin? I'll start at the end. Actually, not how I started into product operations, but what it is, which is what the question was. So. Product operations is an emerging role, still an emerging discipline within the product SaaS world. And many big companies have started to implement this function formally. The big companies, when we think about, like the Airbnbs of the world, the metas of the world, the Ubers of the world. So that's great news for us product operations professionals and what it does, simply put. And as you can imagine, it looks different company to company because each company has its own puzzles and pain to solve for. And then product operations will be set up to address those pains and those puzzles. But at the heart of it, we exist to enable the product team members to do their best work to build an awesome product. And I want to clarify that when I say product, I'm not just talking about product management, I'm talking about all the hands that go into the product lifecycle from leadership that starts understanding, okay, what is the space within the market that we occupy and what is the opportunity, through to the designers, the developers, the product managers, product marketing, and then we follow it all the way through to the end of the product lifecycle, which is sunsetting.

Diana (00:03:53) - So what can we continuously work on with the customer facing teams as well. Customer success, the sales team. Why? Because we need to make sure they understand what the product is and how they are talking about it to their customers. And that's not something that product operations is directly responsible for. But we work with the teams to make that happen.

Ariana (00:04:13) - So you have a lot of stakeholders that you're managing on a day to day basis. And maybe that's that's a little bit of a light bulb for me too, because in business operations everybody's a stakeholder it seems. But it seems like in product operations as well, through the lens of product and strategy, you also are managing everything from, you know, senior people who are developing that strategy all the way through implementation. Customer support. I mean, I'm even guessing maybe finance in some regards. It's pretty much an end to end, look of operations. But within the product world?

Diana (00:04:47) - Absolutely. It's really important, especially as companies begin to hire those first time by product operations roles that this person, whether they are a team of one individual contributor or a team of more than that, they establish those relationships with the cross-functional partners very early and that it's not a one time action.

Diana (00:05:08) - I have monthly check ins with all the heads of departments, and then I have biweekly check-ins with those that my team and I engage with the most. And it's been really helpful because as I help them understand product operations, I also bring them along in the journey and continue to reiterate what it is that we're doing and why it is that it's important. And to clarify some of the anti-patterns that can emerge within the product operations world and Anti-patterns.

Ariana (00:05:37) - Yes, talk to me about that. That is the first time I've ever heard that. What does that mean? That sounds interesting. And I want to steal that.

Diana (00:05:45) - Please, please do. So it's funny because I had reported to the chief product officer and, by the way, an anti-pattern in that regard is that product operations does not report into the head of the, the, the product. So that in itself is one of the anti-patterns we need to sit, we need to report directly into the head of product, whether that's VP, if your CEO is your CPO as well, or the CTO, chief product officer if they have one.

Diana (00:06:17) - So I was having a conversation with my boss about an anti-pattern that I'm beginning to see happen within the team, which is that product operations is regarded as an administrative function of the product teams. So we aren't there to set up meetings. We're not there to know we're not in the administrative arm. We really are here to make it easy for your teams to be successful, while at times that could be facilitating bringing the right people into the room and setting up that cadence of meeting and oftentimes even, moderating that meeting. But we're not here to just schedule meetings and be full of love and respect for administrators. But if you use us to that capacity, you're not extracting the most out of us. So that's what I mean by anti-pattern.

Ariana (00:07:09) - It's also not energizing. I will say there's an assumption. I mean, as an ops person, you know how it goes, I've had a lot of things thrown at me, including, hey, can you order lunch for everybody in the office? And I'm like, cool, that's fine.

Ariana (00:07:23) - I'm totally down. Always happy to help. But like, that's also not where my skill set lies. I would prefer if we can, you know, use it to a degree or I guess, have a more serious understanding of what operations does. What it says to me is, is you're not really seeing where. Operations fits in as a puzzle. We work closely with administrators. We work closely with people like HR or finance teams. But it is different and these responsibilities are different. How has it been setting those boundaries? How have you found some tips and tricks for us? Because I definitely have that in myself too. And I never I never want to feel like I am saying I'm above something because I'm never above any task. But there's also, smart ways to use my hours in my time. And there's also ways that just don't make sense with my workload. So how have you found setting those boundaries? Give us some help.

Diana (00:08:21) - Yes, absolutely. And again, it was the conversation.

Diana (00:08:25) - And it wasn't a comfortable conversation that I had just two days ago with my boss. So I just said, listen, we're beginning to use language to engage me or to engage my team. That sounds like this. They will help us with this. They will coordinate that. And they said, well, we're happy to help in some instances like that, how we can best leverage and engage my team looks like this. And so just setting the example saying and this was really helpful because and then just just give them the specific examples and then be clear. Um, in my case I gave them specific language to use or specific language to avoid when describing or how to engage product operations, because again, this language is starting to be used with leadership, with senior leadership. So I didn't want them to pick up on that trend.

Ariana (00:09:18) - That is such a…I never thought about approaching it from a “here's what I'm hearing and here's how we can be best engaged”. Like, that is a beautiful way of getting people to be aware of how they're speaking about things instead of saying, you know, hey, we don't schedule meetings, which is not true.

Ariana (00:09:34) - We will always schedule meetings to a degree. It's not about that. It's about saying, hey, let's say we're launching in two weeks from now. Product ops is at max capacity with their workloads. Their priority is not going to be scheduling. It's going to be making sure the launch is seamless. All the key players are involved. Integrations are happening, analytics are happening. That's where that is. And that's a really good tip. I'm going to definitely yoink that one too.

Diana (00:10:02) - I'll give you one more actually. So it's my second time setting up the function and having to do this roadshow across the organization where I tell them, okay, this is this is the evolution of product operations in the world. This is why it emerged that it's such an important discipline and rates of adoption. Now okay. This is the puzzles that we saw, the pain that we saw and then go into detail. But one of the things after I tell them what we are, I show a slide that says what we are not.

Diana (00:10:35) - And so that also kind of sets a tone. So one of the things is that we are not we're not a project management office, we're not a PMO. And while project management is one of the most important skills for our product operations manager, we are not a PMO. Also say we're not agile coaches. Agile coaches are incredibly specific in their scope, product operations. It's a little bit more and has a little bit more broad scope. So that's another thing I say. We're not a bandaid solution to problems. We're not a dumping ground for work that teams don't want to do. And yes, we're not administrators. So setting it up early, that's expectation and then repeating it and then addressing it directly. When you start to see those anti-patterns emerge.

Ariana (00:11:25) - That is really beautiful. And I'm going to take away a lot of those tips too, because, you know, I tend to work in smaller businesses, you've worked in very large businesses, and sometimes with those small businesses, the lines are very blurred.

Ariana (00:11:37) - And who does what and how things are done. But as you start to grow and specialize in your role, inevitably an evolution has to happen. Which again, like how do you address these issues without being confrontational, you know, how do you get through that? These are really good. Going to take all of those. So why why product operations? Where did this passion come from? How did you find yourself doing this kind of work?

Diana (00:12:04) - Oh my God, I love the question. And let's dive in. So my passion for operations was born around the same time that I pivoted into tech. So, it happened when the company that I was working for, I joined this company right out of university, a luxury retreat. It was known as the world's largest luxury villa rental company. Many articles referred to us as. The Airbnb of the rich and famous, and I was in business development. So I spent my time traveling to beautiful destinations, scouting properties, luxury properties to add to the portfolio, which meant I had a lot of contact with one of our core customers that host the home owner that would then put their properties on our website to be rented.

Diana (00:12:59) - Great. So then we were acquired by Airbnb in 2017 and we encountered this beautiful problem that all of a sudden we had so many people that wanted to list their home on our platform, and the problem was that we were managed service, white glove service up until then. So we did a screening of all the hosts. We visited all the homes. It was a lot of time and effort in a lot of resources towards listing one home on the website. Once we became part of Airbnb, we needed to productize and we needed to automate that. So that was the beautiful problem. But also we had less than a year to launch the self-serve. And so there was a few mistakes that happened at the beginning. Airbnb decided to bring in one of their own project managers, or one of their own people to manage this giant change. And not only were they from Airbnb, but they were also finance. They came from the finance revenue world.

Diana (00:14:09) - And I thought, that's interesting. So while she brought in a tremendous amount of visibility into what's happening, like visually, he created amazing dashboards and he got the teams organized. He couldn't speak the language of the team or our hosts. So then he, inevitably went on to another project. So then they brought on another project manager, same thing. She was from Airbnb, didn't quite understand the needs and the nuances of our customer. And so she was also able to make a tremendous amount of effort. We needed somebody who knew our side of the business. So then I raised my hand. I was actually on vacation in Spain and I'm like, she left. I'm like, I want to do it. Please, please say, look at me, me, me, me, me. I know both sides of the business so well. I knew the host side, I knew the guest side. And I'm like. And I knew the luxury world. I'm like, let me take a stab at it.

Diana (00:15:05) - And so they're like, go! And I quickly I was also able to like, roll up my sleeves and get a lot of the work done. And it was some of the most exciting work that I did. And that's where I learned, like the importance of operations in being able to bring many together and being able to see, okay, the dependencies and being able to map out like the process and and communicating often to the stakeholders about this and anticipating, look, this could go wrong down the line and just be getting people to buy in. For me that was the introduction into operations.

Ariana (00:15:42) - Also, there's so much that goes into, you know, how do you communicate and get buy in. Like you said, sometimes it's visual, sometimes it's verbal, sometimes it's written like, you know, I'll say, hey, we're going to develop a process map of your operations. And everybody's eyes just kind of glaze over and they're like, oh. And then when they see their operations in a visual format, all of the issues, immediately you can see all of the problems.

Ariana (00:16:05) - I don't need to, you know, I don't need to bargain with you to say, hey, onboarding is really bad right now. You can see it in a visual manner, but that's…I've had to learn a lot of different tactics over the years of how to do that, the ways of getting people to see the bigger picture in the way that we naturally see as operators. So that's that's something I definitely I hear you on that.

Diana (00:16:30) - And the message was so exciting. There was so much excitement around launching this new thing where a host could come and do everything themselves without any human intervention. So that also helped. It got people excited. It got people to rally around the vision and therefore when the operators of this thing, like myself would come in, it didn't require a lot of pulling and nagging. It was a herding of the cats. But so then to connect it to what I'm doing now and the technical side, we were successful.

Diana (00:17:09) - We got 90%.

Ariana (00:17:14) - Yes. It's a great conversion.

Diana (00:17:15) - Yeah. What we needed to do is also get the existing customers to create their profile. For them logging in to update the rates on the website for their property or modify the pictures to them. It's like, absolutely not. That's what your team is for. It's like, well, not in the new world. We kind of need to enable you to do it yourself through awesome products and so successful in that 90% of the host existing customers did that. And then we started to seeing like a facilitating the onboarding journey for new customers. But so then my role pivoted into my title was program manager host success. And that's when I discovered the magic of product development, where again, going back to my roots of business development. And having worked for years in the field with our customer, understanding their pain, seeing them coming to the table literally physically in Montreal and sitting with the designer, sitting with the tech lead and sitting with the product manager.

Diana (00:18:23) - And as the customer was describing their pain and what they needed to do or what they wanted to do, and then seeing the whole process unfold of like, here's the Figma that shows you what it could look like, the designer, and then thinking through some of the backend like configurations of API. And how do APIs and how do you update the rate and then the calendar, you have to share it out in like five different places, and then seeing it come to life and seeing the customer adopt it, I was like, this is magic, and I want to be part of this, and I need to be part of this, and I have to. And so that's when I made the decision, though I love travel and tourism and I studied it. I'm more in love with the whole concept of product development.

Ariana (00:19:02) - Now, when I was hearing you talking about just having knowledge of your customers and the way that you're booking things and the process, and I think for me, I'm a very tactile learner, and I find that a lot of operators are as well, that they want to see and be involved and, you know, be in the warehouse, be in the supply chain, see what's going on.

Ariana (00:19:25) - Oh, what I guess how have you gone about getting in the shoes of the people that are doing the roles without necessarily doing the role? Like, I think it's important that we walk in their world. But again, we can't be the experts that they are in their role, but we do have to merge it with everything else. So how have you, I guess. What are some tactics that you found to do that?

Diana (00:19:53) - Excellent question Ariana. And that's an opportunity for me to also demystify something that's happening in the product ops world is that we're not doing the role of anyone. We are enabling you to do it better. So to answer your question, and this is really a very common best practice in product operations when you join the organization that you need to be in listening mode, you need to understand what the landscape is. So we do a listening tour. So when I joined in the first three months I was listening, I spoke with and I forgot how many between 60 and 70 individuals across the organization, both from within the product teams.

Diana (00:20:39) - And again, by product teams, I mean product managers, product designers, tech lead engineers, software developers, QA, the whole team…support all the way through to the customer teams and they go to market teams. And I ask them three simple questions: what's working well, what's not working well, and what are the biggest opportunity areas? After you speak to so many people, you begin to understand. And so that's really when you gain an understanding of the individual rules and how they function. Because as I said at the beginning, product operations will look different company by company, because you're there to address the puzzles and the pain of that specific company. There are best practices in product operations that we can focus on. There's pillars, but you'll invest more time in one over the other depending on the company.

Ariana (00:21:32) - It makes me think about when I am talking about business operations with people. One of my favorite questions to ask is if you had a magic wand and could change one thing tomorrow, what would that thing be?

Ariana (00:21:46) - But then you also see the thing that is most important to them. And it's interesting. Sometimes it's a pain point, sometimes it's an opportunity. But it's beautiful to get that answer because all of a sudden opens up a world that maybe you didn't see before. And I know that if I'm investigating and learning about how people are doing things, all of it is just absorbing and trying to process and piece it all together. So that's like my pro tip with that is if I give people a magic wand, see what they'll do with it, see what comes out of that. And then that's also these little pockets of investigation that you can start going down.

Diana (00:22:23) - I did make a mistake. And I'll share it here so others don't make the mistake. You know, by nature, product operations are a disruptive function. We're here. To look at what's working well, what's not working well, and then fix what's not working well. And nobody likes change, I actually do, I love change, but most people don't like change.

Diana (00:22:47) - And so from the beginning you will not necessarily be open like welcomed with open arms. Some people may take it even personally. So in your approach you have to be very, very docile, very, nice. And so the mistake that I made was that I over communicated on what's not working well, and instead I could have also celebrated the amazing things that the teams were doing and, and, and ensure them that we were going to preserve that we're not here to change what's working. We're here to preserve it. We're only going to focus on removing the chaos around you, dear product people. Bringing order, making things easier for you. So for an example, one of the pain points that I look forward to working on in 2024 is that right now we're designers have a really hard time getting in contact with the user. With the customer. There's many teams in between. And, it just takes a long time to set up like a customer interview, which, as you know, it's a centerpiece of building a great product.

Ariana (00:23:57) - Absolutely. You can't you can't build it without that.

Diana (00:24:00) - So if we could systematize or automate that process. So if I'm a designer and I wake up, I'm like, you know what, I actually have some extra time. Let me get some customer interviews in the calendar for later this week. It's an easy process. There's no gatekeeping. There's no like. But why and who? No, no, we just make it easy for you. That's the goal. So we're not there to conduct the interview, but we're going to make sure that there's a process. And also what are you doing with the notes after you complete the interview? Dear designer, let's build a repository. Are you sure you're asking all the questions? Let me help build you the template. So again, we're not there to do their job. We're just there to make it easy for them to do their job.

Ariana (00:24:41) - Totally. That's a beautiful way of thinking about it too, because oftentimes, let's say they know that they need customer feedback, but they're not in our world.

Ariana (00:24:49) - We're constantly aggregating data, standardizing things, figuring out how to pull insights from a lot of information. They don't need to have to learn all that from scratch, right? We can give them all those hacks to be able to get there faster. With things that we've already templated and built out. And that's where that building, that trust is so important between teams. And you're right to I, I find that when I come into businesses. Even if I stress. I'm just here to help. I'm giving you a snapshot of where you are today, recommendations of where you could get better and what you're doing great. Most of the time people just hear the negatives. They just hear the things that they're not doing right. And it's very hard as humans to get to celebrate all the things that they're doing well, even if we emphasize it too. I don't know about you, but it's caused me to have thicker skin. I think as an operator, I kind of take it.

Ariana (00:25:43) - I don't want to say, like, a lot of things come our way. We have to be able to roll with the punches, and it's forced me to just be okay if people respond in a not so great way. I know that sounds bad, but it's usually because we're changing things and people hate change. And who are they going to lash out at, which is us? I'm like, yeah, I totally get it. I, I'm I'm here for you. How have you navigated? I guess the emotional response to these changes that you've had.

Diana (00:26:14) - Oh my gosh, I love this question so much. So I'm super, super lucky I have a team of five, four that are dedicated to product operations.

Ariana (00:26:27) - That's fantastic to have that super lucky.

Diana (00:26:30) - If you listen to other product operations leaders, they don't have such a well-established team. Because the company is still observing what this function is, what value do they bring? So that's a topic for another session, by the way, part time, part two.

Diana (00:26:46) - So I needed to make sure that my team was well prepared, well armored for when they go into the world, when they start engaging with product managers, product designers or customer success managers, professional services, and that when they're talking about changing something, they are going to be met with resistance, period. End of story. We can predict that. So I needed to make sure that they were well prepared. And so I established operating principles for my team. And one of them is to be agile in pivots as needed, because we know, you know, the not that direction of the company can change often, but the objectives could be reset because something like a pandemic happens or a new in our in our world, a new regulation is introduced that impacts something that we're doing. And so we have to pivot. We can't really fall in love with what we're doing. We have to be practical. We have to make sure, like, are we working on the right things and continue to iterate on them.

Diana (00:27:55) - And if the business calls for us to stop working on something and to focus our attention on something else, then we have to be able to do that, and so be it. Because we do. We work on such exciting, yummy puzzles, and it's super awesome to engage with so many individuals across the organization. To have to stop working on something can be a bit hard, so, and I have them go out there and share those principles with others. But I wanted to share some of the other ones. It's also important that we preserve culture and productivity over process because something that you said earlier, like in operations, is often closely tied or associated with process. And while that's true, we have to understand within the context of a culture that we work in and also ensure that we're being productive and not introduce process for the sake of process.

Ariana (00:28:50) - 1,000%. One of my biggest pet peeves is when operations is synonymous with process.

Ariana (00:28:56) - It is not synonymous. It is a tool that we have in our toolbox. Just like technology, just like people, just like all these other tools. And I think that's why people get scared of apps because I think they're like, no, I don't want to process. A lot of people are process allergic. And they're like, no, thank you. But it's really not about that. It's saying, okay, what are you doing today? Like you said, how do we get to what you're doing today to doing it better? And we're not going to presume what that's going to look like or give you, say, a checklist is going to make it better, because we know that that's not true. A checklist is just a piece of paper. It's the humans behind all of these things that make it work in tick. And that culture piece, like you said, is so vital. What do you think is the role of product ops in helping to build or reinforce culture? Like, for me, I'm a big fan of humor, I love humor, I love silliness, I love bringing it into operations because I think it can be.

Ariana (00:29:53) - People can think it's dry. And so I love bringing in humor. How have you found, what are tips that you found in reinforcing or building culture through product operations?

Diana (00:30:03) - Great question, and I'm not sure if you've heard that debate from Marty Cagan. He's the author of inspired, empowered, and very soon he's publishing his third book, transformed. So those books are very important to product people in general. And so when product operations started, really.

Ariana (00:31:53) - It’s back. Yeah. Yeah. In celebrating the failures is a leader. A responsibility about ours is to say, hey, I fell on my face here. It wasn't…it didn't feel great. But this is what I learned from this, and this is what I want to bring to the greater team to celebrate. Even though we, you know, I flopped on this. I learned from this. I was interviewing somebody and they said, you know, I asked them, "what are some things that people don't really know about operations”.

Ariana (00:33:10) - And they essentially were like that. We've got big egos. And I thought that was interesting because I'd never thought about that. But I feel like sometimes the ego comes from, oh, we know best or we know the best approach. And if you can celebrate your failures, you're essentially saying, hey, I don't know. The best approach. Always. I'm going to try my best always. And I'm going to be honest about what's working and what's not working. And it's that again, like then it's antiguo. Like, how do we combat that initial reaction, which is, I don't know, it really woke me up when she said that, because I thought it was so profound and I started celebrating failures more and being more open about that. But then I guess this gets me to a part. You clearly love to mentor people, and you love to help them grow within their roles. So if someone is listening here and maybe they aren't in operations at all, but they're thinking, man, I really want to get into product ops.

Ariana (00:34:07) - After hearing all this conversation, what do you think are some stepping stones that they should move towards?

Diana (00:34:13) - Great question. So I was once in that exact position I've been asked, is it important to be a product manager before you step into a product operations role? My answer is no. While most other peoples are are product operations professionals are yes. You need to have that background. You can learn that you I, I don't come from a product management background. I come from a business development background. So my recommendation is thoroughly understand like what product operations is. And again, I recognize that it's still being defined. Oh, I think we have a good idea now and brush up those skills or reskill yourself. Going back to project management, it's a big piece of being a great product operations person. Communication and presentation skills, are a big piece of having success in a product operations role. And you do have to have an understanding of what the product lifecycle is and then the different pieces that plug into each of those phases.

Diana (00:35:22) - So again, when I mentioned the opportunity identification, it's like understand the, the the market. If you're in a specific industry you want to work in a specific market. You do need to understand some of the nuances. So I would advise that there's time put into learning the various aspects of what will make you successful. Again, whether that's project management or other.

Ariana (00:35:50) - The other piece I wanted to jump in on because I saw this and I was like, oh my gosh, I've got to ask, so you're a chapter leader of Latinas in tech? And I was really excited to see that because, you know, I got into tech five, six years ago, full stack developer. And there weren't a lot of technical women that were a part of that group. I think at the time it was like 7%. And when I saw that you were chapter leader of this, it got me really pumped. So I wanted to ask about that. If listeners are listening in and potentially they're a good fit for being a part of that.

Ariana (00:36:23) - Can you just bring to life what it's about and why you became a chapter leader?

Diana (00:36:27) - Oh my gosh, thank you so much for asking. Yes. So for those of you listening that don't know, Latinas in Tech is a nonprofit organization with the aim to connect, support and empower Latino women working in tech. It started as two friends having a casual gathering. And it grew from there. And so what was a couple happy hours turned into a full fledged movement. And so the co-founders and this was in 2014, they dreamed of a world where Latinas could connect with each other, learn from each other, and support each other's professional careers. And so this eventually became that tech companies would open their doors to Latinas in tech to host meetups. And this was in the San Francisco Bay area. Fast forward to today. There's 23 chapters, six of which are international. The Latinas and Tech Canada chapter launched in April of 2020.

Diana (00:37:31) - And so that's when I became a member and I was still making that success. Transitioning into tech, that's where I found that support that I needed, that encouragement that I needed. You know, how do we combat and talk about, like, the imposter syndrome because you do begin to feel that a little bit a lot and, you know, how do you navigate that? So I extracted a lot of value from it. And when the opportunity this year, they approached me and asked if I wanted to take the leader role. I thought, of course. So so, yeah, it's really like we envision a world, a tech industry where Latinas are just well represented throughout all levels of the tech ecosystem. That's our mission.

Ariana (00:38:22) - That imposter syndrome is so. Oh, it's just brutal. It's such a brutal feeling. And it's it also is so specific to the community that you're in as well. Like being in New York City.

Ariana (00:38:35) - When I was in tech at the time, it felt like, man, there's like, you know, a handful of us ladies that are doing technology. But again, being able to speak to those personal feelings in an environment where people just inherently understand there's nothing better. I don't even know how to describe it. You just feel less alone and it allows, I don't know, it allowed me to take more risks or allowed me to be bigger in a room. Does that make sense?

Diana (00:39:03) - It absolutely makes sense. So for the record, I have never actually subscribed to the notion of imposter syndrome as it is described. Like, I don't even like those words imposter syndrome. I really wish that they would select the.

Ariana (00:39:19) - Refrain that we gotta rebrand it.

Diana (00:39:21) - Because here's my personal opinion and this is a very personal opinion, like imposter syndrome is a feeling that we get, that we get okay, why do we feel that way? Because of those around us that are doing something or not doing something to make us feel this way.

Diana (00:39:36) - Okay, great. So who are the people around us? And in the context of a woman of color and tech, oftentimes you are the only woman of color in the room where because of unconscious biases, you voice won't be heard. You have to repeat yourself often, or you will see that others will take credit for your work, or your decisions or whatever. And so, yeah, inevitably over time, you begin to feel like I don't belong here, but it's not you that has to change or do the work, it's those around you. So that's why I don't love the notion of imposter syndrome. But I do recognize that the impact of imposter syndrome is very real in our community. And like in women, for women, in the tech world, for people of color, I yes.

Ariana (00:40:30) - That is I I'd never even put that together because it feels like you're being gaslit almost where the responsibility is put on you. Right. Like and again like some of it is me reframing how I feel about myself and my skills, especially if you transition to tech later in life.

Ariana (00:40:48) - Like I was not a technical person. I didn't go to school for it. So I did feel like, man, I've got a lot of catching up to do. And my basis in those feelings was that. But also part of it is if you're in a room and people aren't listening, if they say your idea just in their own words and they take that idea if you're trying to flag things and no one is seeing those flags until it's a problem, then you're sort of it just perpetuates itself. And you're right. It is. It is a two way street. It is a lot. You have to say, all right, what is the internal work that I have to do? But then also I don't want to feel like I'm being gaslit. What's the cultural work that this business hasn't done to be able to make an environment where I feel supported and heard and like my knowledge matters? That is really interesting.

Diana (00:41:42) - And I don't want to remove the responsibility that we all have of continuing to upskill and re-skill.

Diana (00:41:49) - I changed how we work and it's completely changing the job market not a year from now, but today. Now it's so we have to continue investing in our own skills. I'm continuously learning how to manage diverse teams or how to give more compelling presentations, how to speak in public. I'll learn about APIs, backend front, and all this stuff that will allow me to enter a room and confidently speak and give my recommendation. That will never stop. But I do see that sometimes my counterpart doesn't have to put in as much effort, which makes me better because I not only have more skill in thicker skin, I've had to work harder. But you know, that's why I don't let imposter. Your syndrome affects me, I really don't. I know what I have to do, and I do it.

Ariana (00:42:42) - There's something that when I think about somebody, a female artist, a female musician was talking about, I think it was Taylor Swift, was talking about how women are constantly having to reinvent themselves throughout their careers, right? To like, keep people re-energize and intrigued in what they're doing.

Ariana (00:42:57) - Whereas, you know, men or other groups don't necessarily have to do that as much. And it's funny because I felt that so much in my own career, even though I'm not Taylor Swift, obviously. Like, yeah, I'm constantly reinventing and learning all these new skills to stay ahead of the curve. Part of that is just because I'm a curious person, but also part of it is because I've been in rooms where I'm invisible and I don't want to be invisible. And I have to figure out how to be able to bring something in my own skin that is based on the most current knowledge of trends or technology. It's like mentally exhausting sometimes. Like, I'm really tired. But I will say, as I've gotten older, I feel more comfortable in my own skin, which makes it easier than it was when I was younger and like, not comfortable. Still trying to figure all this out. There is that piece though of okay, can I catch a break? And it does come down to building a culture where you can have that and you can feel like everybody's opinions matter.

Ariana (00:44:00) - Thank you for that. That really helped reframe a big thing for me and gave me a big light bulb.

Diana (00:44:06) - I also know thank you for letting me share it.

Ariana (00:44:09) - Yeah. Of course and thanks for being a chapter leader in Latinas in Tech. I think it's so important and fabulous.

Diana (00:44:17) - Thank you. Yes, we have a lot of work ahead of us.

Ariana (00:44:21) - And we'll make sure to link it in the description as well for the podcast so people can find it and be a part of it if they'd like to. So let's wrap up with some rapid fire questions, just to learn more about you as a human being. Okay, so the first question is what is your favorite part of the day?

Diana (00:44:38) - Lunch. But not because I get to eat, but because I get to hang out with my husband. So we both work from home and we are. We've been together 21 years. We've been married for 19. Yes.

Ariana (00:44:54) - And that's fabulous.

Diana (00:44:56) - He's also in tech. He's a senior IT project manager. Super, super big responsibility. And lunch is actually one of the only times where we are both able to come together. Even after work. We have activities. So I got home last night from an event. He got home from Rutherford. We didn't spend much time together yesterday. So lunch because it's like we're here. If we're going to watch your favorite show for lunch time, that's the office. Yeah.

Ariana (00:45:28) - Man, that time is special too. And you got to sneak it where you can get it for sure. Yeah. What is the best purchase you've made under $50?

Diana (00:45:36) - I promise you, this was not planned. I knew this question was coming. Is this one the product preparations? I'm sorry. It's true, though.

Diana (00:45:48) - It's true, it's true. Yeah.

Ariana (00:45:52) - See, you're you. You walk the walk. We'll put it this way. You walk the walk for sure.

Diana (00:45:57) - This knowledge is our super.

Diana (00:46:00) - Knowledge is power and it fuels our superpower. And it's awesome to see, to hear new perspectives, to read case studies, to inject this new energy. Because I get energy from that into the team and send them, like I'll send the screenshots. I'm like, look, look at this. So yes, I'm sorry, it's true.

Ariana (00:46:18) - It's brilliant and beautiful. And you are a product operations nerd through and through. It's clear. Yes. What is something that makes you little-kid happy in nature?

Diana (00:46:29) - Anything nature related? I went to pick out our Christmas tree two nights ago, and my husband.

Diana (00:46:37) - Because I was literally jumping for joy and screaming and squealing. And I was like, hugging that, like the tree. I need to feel the love for the tree. And then we felt the love. And I named the tree. His name is Robert.

Ariana (00:46:50) - And so Bob for short or fully?

Diana (00:46:53) - Bob for short. Yeah.

Ariana (00:46:54) - For sure. Okay. Got it. Robert. He's more of a Robert. He's more of a Robert. Yeah, Robert I get it.

Diana (00:47:00) - Besides we decorated him very elegantly. Like our friend was like, this is such a fancy tree.

Ariana (00:47:05) - Robert. You got a dapper Robert tree. That's what you've got. Haha.

Diana (00:47:11) - Handsome. Haha.

Ariana (00:47:15) - But if you were to go back in time and talk to your younger self early on in their career, what is a piece of advice you would give to yourself?

Diana (00:47:24) - Oh my goodness, last time somebody asked me this I cried. But I'm not going to cry this time, so.

Ariana (00:47:29) - Don't cry because then you'll make me cry and then we'll both be crying.

Diana (00:47:33) - I would. I would tell my younger self to just not seek the opinion or buy in of others like you don't like you. I was always very specific when I was little and I always felt like I was doing something wrong. I knew very little, like I liked, I liked things in a specific way, and I felt like I needed to change that.

Diana (00:48:02) - But no, it's what makes me awesome. And, you know, being in an environment where that is allowed, meaning my own environment, I created that for myself. I wish I would have been allowed to be more mean who I am, so I would I would tell myself, like, secretly just continue being you. You're like, not weird. You're super awesome. Do you? I love that.

Ariana (00:48:26) - My husband said weird. Weird. Being called weird is a compliment because that just says that you're uniquely you. Which, I mean, is there anything better? Last one. What do you want to be when you grow up?

Diana (00:48:38) - This is actually a very timely question because, you know, we talk about, like, retirement and you're like, retirement sounds so boring to me. Like, my husband's like, but we're going to travel. I'm like, but you'll get tired of traveling. I said, so how would I want to spend my time if I didn't have to work? And I only recently discovered it? I actually would love to contribute 100% of my time towards nonprofit organizations.

Diana (00:49:04) - So Latinas in tech being one of them. But there's three others that I volunteer for and see, like giving back like it’s, fact that it gives us a dose of happiness and like, yeah, yeah. So giving back to the community, making sure that you're helping drive like impact. And, you know, one of the other organizations that I answer for is called Tech Innovation, which helps young girls ages 8 to 18 pursue careers in Stem. And seeing the minds of these little girls, like ask these questions and invest time in coding and application and writing a business plan. It's just like, oh my God, like I think I'm having an impact on their lives. I just want to be able to do that full time if I didn't have to work. So when I grow up, I want to do that.

Ariana (00:49:50) - Oh my gosh, that sounds fabulous. And I do wish that I had that growing up. I feel like now it's become normalized to have those types of things for younger women.

Ariana (00:49:59) - And man, I really wish I had that. All of my struggles with my remotes and trying to get them to work would have been so much easier. But I do think, you know, how would my career have changed if I had been exposed to that when I was younger?

Ariana (00:50:14) - Can't I really can't imagine it'd be a whole different life.

Diana (00:50:17) - It's incredible because you ask yourself, what was I doing at eight years old? It was not coding an application, you know, to kind of tie those two worlds together a little bit, though. One of the best pieces of advice that I heard was from a tech executive from Amazon Latina. So it was a panel that I heard for Latinas Tech, she said, I asked, my daughter has to ask for everything because she wanted to make sure her daughter's comfortable asking for things, voicing her opinion, voicing her needs. So everything from cereal to milk to the spoon, like everything from little. And it's true. Like, I wasn't necessarily encouraged to speak up and ask for what I needed. On the contrary, I was told to be quiet because the quieter I am, the prettier I look.

Ariana (00:51:04) - Totally I even now I, I even will ask for things and my husband will be like, just do it. We don't. You don't need to ask like you're a grown person, but it is such an ingrained habit that is instilled from a societal standpoint. You know, even my parents were super progressive and wanted me to do all the things and be all, all the stuff, but I still have that baked into my brain, or even just saying sorry when I don't need to be sorry for anything. Or if somebody bumped into me saying that, you know, it's relearning those habits and relearning taking ups. It's really about taking up space. That's right. And saying, I'm allowed to take up space,, just like you are. Everybody can take up their space.

Ariana (00:51:48) - I'm a human being, and because I'm a human being, I have worth. It's crazy to say that because it's just a it's a truth. But rewiring your brain to believe it is very different. And Lisa has been for me. So for me as well.

Diana (00:52:01) - Yeah.

Ariana (00:52:01) - Oh, man. We could definitely have a part two around all of this stuff. Lastly, people are listening. They want to get into product Ops. They want to learn more about you. Where can we point them?

Diana (00:52:12) - Please come to LinkedIn to find me. I'm really active on LinkedIn. I do respond to messages, whether it takes 1 or 2 days, but I do respond to messages, you know, set up a coffee chat with me. I don't have too much time. But I will at least…send me your questions and I will answer them. And as we build this amazing thing called product operations, that we share our learnings, our mistakes that we celebrate wins, of course also.

Ariana (00:52:48) - We'll make sure to link that in the description as well as Latinas in tech so that everybody can have access to those things. This has been such a joy. I really feel like I've also been educated more on product operations, because it's always been adjacent to the work that I do. But I really want to thank you for breaking that down and bringing it to life for us. Thank you so much.

Diana (00:53:08) - Oh, no, thank you.I had three notes, three pages of notes, and we didn't get to any of them. But it's okay. There's so much to talk about. So, you know, I'm happy to continue sharing. I'm really you know, I'm lucky that I've been able to dive deeper into product operations. So yeah, I'm really happy to continue sharing.

Ariana (00:53:30) - Well, listeners, if you were continuing to be as absorbed as I am in this conversation, please remember to subscribe wherever you find your podcasts.

Ariana (00:53:39) - We're also on YouTube now. So if you're a visual learner like myself, you can watch all of these, wonderful interviews. And I guess we will see you next time.