Lindsey (00:00:02) - Good strategy is not just like a vision and a mission statement, and like, this is the direction that we're going. That's not actually what good strategy is. Good strategy to me is the deployment of that strategy, because the core of it is to get everybody going in the same direction, to promote the outcome of the strategy you're trying to drive.

Ariana (00:00:23) - Welcome to Secret Ops, the podcast uncovering the world of operations, one episode at a time. I'm your host, Ariana Cofone, and today's guest is Lindsey Bell, Head of R&D operations at Foursquare. Today, this episode is all about product operations, what it is, what it isn't, and different ways of applying it into what you do in your world. I walked into this conversation excited because we had so many similarities and differences between business operations and product operations, and then Lindsey just served us a ton of knowledge that I think you can use across any of the roles in whatever business you're working in. Um, also, she's just a really cool human being.

Ariana (00:01:07) - So let's dive in. Lindsey, thanks so much for coming on to Secret Ops. I was getting ready for this call, and slowly and surely getting myself more and more excited because I feel like you and I are going to jam out about operations and especially the world of product operations, because, well, you have over a decade of of experience in strategic operations and leadership, and where you specialized is in product operations, which is something that people, I think have a familiarity with, but they don't really have a true understanding of. So before we dive into nerding out, can you break down what product operations is and why you've decided to focus on that in your career?

Lindsey (00:01:52) - Product operations is interesting because so many people are trying to define it right now. It's picked up its popularity even more so, I would say in the last couple of months. So the first person, at least from my point of view, that incepted this idea or wrote it down, really was Melissa Perry with the release of her Escape the Build Trap book or Escaping the Build Trap, I might have butchered that.

Lindsey (00:02:15) - But she introduced the idea that basically being like a part of the product organization as an organism, and she didn't use these words. These are my words of like, making sure that things are running the way that we think that they should. That also can mean so many different things, right? She's recently released a book with, Denise Tilles titled Product Operations, which, if we think back to like product management in general and it's like release. However many years ago, I want to say like 15, probably maybe 20 at this point. There are a lot of people that came out and defined it. And then, you know, Marti wrote an inspired book and all of a sudden everyone wanted to be a product manager. And I feel like that's kind of what's happening with product operations because it latches on to the hype of product and like everyone wanting to be a part of products, but I think opens the door for more types of brains, like more operation brains, which I'm super excited for, and chatting with you because you've seen so many other brains.

Lindsey (00:03:18) - But we clicked immediately in similarities even in different industries, so it's really cool to see where it's going. Anyway, with all that preface to me, product operations is a team that supports how good products should be done. Now, how good products should be done should really be interpreted in the context of the organization itself, the maturity of the organization, the stage in which it's in. I've worked at companies that are, you know, early stage but very large. Those operational challenges are very different from a smaller team that's, you know, really trying to accelerate its growth. So its application varies, but some core tenets of it…I like to picture a temple of Zeus, if you will. So the roof of the temple is good strategy. I say good strategy, mostly because it's kind of a lame phrase, but it's stuck in my brain. But it's really like, how do we plan? How do we communicate our strategy? What is good product strategy to our go to market partners? What is good product strategy to our customers, and like the coaching factor to the rest of product with what good strategy should look like. Now, in supporting good strategy, there's also um, three pillars.

Lindsey (00:04:42) - So going back to our temple.

Ariana (00:04:44) - I'm loving this visual. I'm a visual learner. So I am in this. I get it.

Lindsey (00:04:48) - I have to. Like in order for me to even…this is build from a slide deck, right? I think we can all infer that I had to do it at some point. So Data and Insights is one piece, which Melissa Perry actually highlights as the major piece. I would actually say that there's some some things that have to come before that. But data and insights is a big key portion. So that means empowering product managers. I would even extend beyond product managers and product leadership to say also engineering leadership. Our missions are united. I have probably many more things to say about that in this podcast. But how can we centralize some data and insights that are valuable for us to make decisions that move our strategy forward? Dashboards, building the infrastructure to get it there. What are we actually measuring? What provides value, etc..

Lindsey (00:05:42) - The second pillar, which is the one that got me into it, I think is the customer and go-to market interlock. So this is working with teams like product marketing and sales enablement and being a little bit of a translation layer between the teams. Now, I don't like to say middleman because sometimes they can feel that way. That's actually an anti-pattern that you don't want. But what you're trying to do is just bring what product is doing and what engineering is doing to the light of the rest of the organization in our ways of working. So an example of this would be release management. Products operations…and some organizations lead release management that's coordinating with product and engineering. And a lot of cross-functional teams of what are we releasing, when is it going to release, what's kind of our checklist to get us to that point? It doesn't take away product managers working with these folks and, you know, enabling them, but it's a bit more tactical work. But then figuring out how is that repeatable with our product marketing partners, with our sales partners, etc.?

Ariana (00:06:51) - What is that cadence that we're getting into? So it's sustainable.

Ariana (00:06:54) - Got it.

Lindsey (00:06:55) - We talk about what. So that you can do your jobs well with those key partners. Which to me is like operations as a definition of a function that's like it's to me bringing things to the time in which they need to be talked about so that they get done. That's what that is. And the last pillar is process and tooling. So that's really how does the R&D or product and engineering and design organization work better together. So that's defining things like what is our product development lifecycle at our company. How do we talk about the work that we do? When we zoom in to our discovery process…t's not really a process. I more like to say framework because process really gets people going.

Ariana (00:07:42) - Freaked out. Super freaked out. Yeah.

Lindsey (00:07:45) - Like what is good discovery? And how should we think about enabling the organization to do good discovery? That's embedded in a framework which then sometimes leads to some processes.

Lindsey (00:07:56) - That was so many words to explain the thing.

Ariana (00:07:59) - Actually for me, because I'm coming from business operations and product operations is kind of clear, but it's also a black hole for me, too. It's like both things simultaneously. It 1,000% is clear now. I, I really don't know if I understood it until you described the…what was it, the Zeus. I would love to talk more about the strategy and good strategy, because I have not talked about this with other operators, but I think one of the biggest blockers in operations is bad strategy, because bad strategy leads to north stars that are not the correct North star, that don't bring in revenue, that don't convert, that, you know, have the team going down the wrong path, and then bad strategy whip lashes two different strategy. That's maybe also bad. So I think good strategy is actually difficult to hone in on. I guess could you…or from your experience, when have you seen good strategy make operations thrive and when have you seen bad strategy kind of come to life and maybe an uglier way?

Lindsey (00:09:13) - Oh man, I feel like I'm going to rat out somebody.

Ariana (00:09:16) - We'll talk general. We'll talk general.

Lindsey (00:09:19) - I’ll be general, but I feel like some coworkers are going to be like, uhhh. Not my current coworkers, maybe. So where I see in good strategy, I will say I most likely see bad strategy. That good strategy, which I feel like is the biggest indicator of why companies hire somebody like me to begin with. So it's like a little bit of which comes first, the chicken or the egg. Like, am I being hired because of that challenge or, you know, whatever.

Ariana (00:09:51) - How quickly can you tell which one it is when you start with a company?

Lindsey (00:09:55) - Pretty quickly. I usually can figure it out during the interview process. Which during my time off, I was actually thinking about consulting because it kind of became a rinse and repeat style line of questioning for me to identify it. The core way that I like, investigate it and determine whether it's good or bad is this is actually something also from Alice's book.

Lindsey (00:10:20) - I feel like she's getting free marketing with this. But she went around and asked, you know, a lot of different players in the organization, what is our strategy? And if you get different answers, there's likely a gap in alignment. Now, you're always going to get different answers because people perceive things differently. But when you write it all out, are there more discrepancies than there is likeness? And if there's more discrepancies, then they're not aligned, which to me like, good strategy is not just like a vision and a mission statement and like, this is the direction that we're going. That's not actually what good strategy is. Good strategy to me is the deployment of that strategy, because the core of it is to get everybody going in the same direction, to promote the outcome of the strategy you're trying to drive.

Ariana (00:11:11) - So it's not just the communication, which I think is what from strategy, from the outside, you think, “oh, are we communicating what we're trying to do here? No, that's just the beginning phase and draft of what we're actually trying to do”.

Ariana (00:11:23) - It's about execution and timelines and realistically saying, hey, this is when things are going to come to fruition, which is a whole other beast.

Lindsey (00:11:31) - Yeah. And I think that like for product translates into a roadmap. And I don't want the audience to think that, you know, like a roadmap is a deployment of strategy either. Like, I think what you're really looking for is the behavior, because that roadmap artifact is just another opportunity for people to say things and not do them. You have to figure out, like what are we saying? What are we doing? And do those things align? And that first test is yeah, let's go ask around. And what are the discrepancies in how things are said? If it's very different in how things are said, like there's a communication gap likely. And there's also probably like going back to operations being kind of the cadence makers, like there's probably not been opportunity to realign and align and align and align and align over and over again to then influence doers to do the things that support the strategy, which is another investigation of if I go into a product and engineering tool, can I actually interpret any of the work in the same language that relates to strategy? If not, then there's probably something like we're using our own terminology, which in and of itself is a blocker for strategy too, because when we go to “yeah, we're going to deploy XYZ”.

Lindsey (00:12:53) - It doesn't speak to customer value, it doesn't speak to strategy. When we go tell the rest of our organization that we did this thing, they don't understand the connection between the execution and strategy. And now we're on four different paths. I'm sure from your biz ops experience, like that next layer is also just as critical as like intra team is like everywhere else and communicating to our customers where we're going. The last thing I'll say on this, but like the final finish of it, is what are your customers think that you do? And what are you actually doing? Again, because you can communicate strategy and your marketing, you can do all these things. But if you're releasing something, that is really what your customer is seeing.

Ariana (00:13:38) - Definitely. And what they're engaging with too what they release and what they engage with, and then versus what you're trying to market or what you're trying to push. Is that in line? Are they in sync or are we totally off? And that's where I guess we get into misconceptions around product operations, which you and I had fun chatting about.

Ariana (00:13:59) - But I think there's a ton in operations in general when it comes to product operations. What do you think people get wrong from the outside about what you do?

Lindsey (00:14:09) - Oh my gosh, there's so many things.

Ariana (00:14:13) - Let me get my scroll.

Lindsey (00:14:15) - Because it's gaining popularity, i's now become a little bit of a trend for people to have a perspective on whether this thing should exist or not, which is so funny to me because it's still not very. It's not popular enough, actually, in organizations for the people that are speaking to actually know what the heck they're talking about and whether there's value. But to be fair, it's our job as product operations stewards to communicate our value consistently so that the rest of everybody understands. But that's pretty difficult when there's not many of us doing the work and have a hard time getting headcount, to be honest.

Ariana (00:14:50) - It’s honestly the same too. I mean, that's why Secret Ops was founded, because like, we operators suck at describing it and we have to learn how to market ourselves better to get the resources to get people to understand.

Ariana (00:15:01) - I totally am with you on that.

Lindsey (00:15:04) - So there's a couple of things that I think of when I think of how people, um, perceive and where overlaps are that create challenges. So are you just a TPM, a technical program manager? That's a fair question because companies like Amazon and Microsoft and probably Salesforce leverage their TPM organizations in a way that I would say product operations is leveraged in other companies.

Ariana (00:15:35) - Do you think that's due to the size of the company and the specializations needed for those different teams' products?

Lindsey (00:15:42) - I had a it was a similar experience of Twilio. This is really where I got this question asked most of me, because we had both product operations and technical program managers. And in every team that I worked with, I met with the team and we had to figure out where are our lines. And because TPMs are also very, I would say I'm gonna make a statement. Maybe it's not fair, but I think operations folks are generalists, and that's where a lot of value that we actually provide comes from.

Lindsey (00:16:14) - I would say TPMs are generalist with usually a focus. And typically for tech companies that focus is engineering. But they do have the skill set to do what I do. It's not that they couldn't. It's more or less like, where do we need to focus? So that we can get the things done that need to be done, which is, you know, a definition of a departmental strategy to begin with. If you have TPMs doing operational work and managing programs, those skillsets do start to diverge because one and this is a distinction to me, programs can be long running, but for the most part there is an end date. Operations is ongoing, all the time. And yes, we do take projects and we do take programs that have end dates. But there are things that influence how we operate.

Ariana (00:16:58) - And those projects tend to thread back into the operations of the long term way. More or less.

Lindsey (00:17:03) - Yes. Maybe operating right, it's still influencing the mission of “we're working smoothly” versus I think the mission of a TPM is “we're able to deliver this program smoothly”. It’s just a hair of difference.

Ariana (00:17:20) - Yeah. And it's that thing that because we're in this world, I all of a sudden see all the nuances as you've described it, right? Like, oh, I see this. I see that outside, though, that's very difficult to articulate. But it does come down to, you know, what do you do? What do I do? Which even, you know, let's talk about an engineering team, front end versus back end versus full stack. Those lines still need to be divided by team, by project, by initiative too. So it's really any operator I talk to. All of this comes down to clear communication. Like literally that's it because it's going to manifest differently based on what you like to do and your skill sets and what they like to do in their skill sets. But that, I'm sure, is difficult to untangle for an outside audience or outside stakeholders. Yeah. So how have you learned to untangle it for maybe people who are not in the day to day like you are, but that maybe need to understand it but don't necessarily need to get into the weeds?

Lindsey (00:18:19) - Yeah.

Lindsey (00:18:20) - So how I do it in my individual role is just work with…they're my partners. I just work with that partner and we define what it is, and then we communicate what that delineation is. And we also communicate how the delineation supports what we're all ultimately trying to do, which is to deliver great products to customers. And if that's understood, then for the most part, they don't care. I think the challenge is actually between me and the partner more than it is like communicating the leadership for the most part, or even, you know, out of the organization.

Ariana (00:18:53) - Because if it gets done, it gets done. Like if the results are happening.

Lindsey (00:18:57) - Right? Exactly. So if I figure that out with my partner were golden. But I think where a challenge comes in is when, like individual engineers and product managers are just trying to engage the right people, right. What we don't want is churn just because they don't know how to go to, like that's just a bummer. So that's just, you know, a resource that they have so that they can then understand that and a relationship again between me and that partner to help direct, you know, the right direction so that we can do the things we need to do to get the job done.

Lindsey (00:19:27) - II think the one comment that I would make in addition, which I think a lot of companies struggle with, is what departments share equal mission? Or have overlap in mission. I would think this is one of them. Another one that's kind of coming up is engineering operations. Another one that's gaining popularity is design operations. Another one that's gaining popularity is research operations. And these are all incredible specializations that have value. But we really need to look at is our overlap. And how are we not being redundant. Because that's like where I think a lot of anxiety comes from in these specialized operations roles is like, what's gonna happen to me if, you know, all of a sudden there's more generalists is coming in and I can no longer able to excel at my job. I think that for a company, they need to figure out, and it's not often prioritized in tech. I would say they need to figure out what is the right structural approach to promote the outcome that they want, which is why when I was negotiating in my new job about, you know, what my role was, I was very adamant that R&D operations was going to be my next role.

Lindsey (00:20:37) - I don't necessarily…I'm heavily focused in product operations and what I do now, but what I'm planning for is, you know, engineering operations, design operations, research operations are potentially areas where we could go. And I think that that means that having that leader define what the shared mission is and prevent redundancy and all that stuff is really important. And I don't see companies do that because one, there's probably fear of the classic PML model that people hate or have like got visceral reactions to. But then it's also just not being intentional about it, which I think is why the trend I see at least is, “oh my gosh, things are really messy. We need to hire someone to help make it less messy. Let me hire this operations person to help me do that. Wow, they're doing such a great job. It's really hard to get funding to continue with that team. Let me burn them out. Maybe a little bit. Not intentionally, of course.” And then it comes to a head of, “wow, more things are messy. Let me add another one”. And it's a very one-off approach. Rather than thinking of like their operations in your organization happening, whether you are being intentional about it or not. Yeah. So even if you have one person in a role, even if you have zero people, like as a leader, you need to be thinking about how are we operating, period. And I think that like to your first question of where outside world is starting to poke at product operations is a question of is what you do just helping poor leaders? Should they be doing this? Which is a pretty popular debate right now.

Ariana (00:22:18) - Hot topic, hot topic. Yeah. Have any thoughts on that?

Lindsey (00:22:21) - I do, I don't think…I mean, when we first met we talked about our uniqueness and our brain strengths and like what we bring to the table. I really think it can be a learned skill. But I do think there are natural, natural personalities that are drawn to operations. I really do think that. And I think similarly in engineering, I think similarly in product, especially in engineering, really, I can expect an engineering leader to do both product engineering, uh, management of a giant team. Oh, and by the way, figure out all their operations. So it's as efficient as it could possibly be. The person just can't physically do that.

Ariana (00:23:04) - Yeah, I, I didn't I always believe that you can learn skills. And then your expertise of that skill ultimately is based on the interest that you have and are drawn to it, or just based on you, like grinding away at learning the skill, but it can only get you so far. My mom showed me a video when I was a kid, and I was like, maybe three or four, and I was just sitting there organizing her sewing kit that had, like, needles everywhere. And like, I just was slowly just organizing every little piece of that. And my husband and I, we saw that video. We were like, Holy shit. Like, this is how my brain worked, even from, you know, single digit age.

Ariana (00:23:46) - Like, that's just how my brain is. And I think as I've gotten older, that's only gotten stronger, like for ten years of my career, I'm, like, wandering around trying to figure out, like, how is this all coming together? And then looking back now, it always, the thread was always operations, and it was always creating that clarity from whatever hot mess was presented to me. That ties into that leadership component too, because, for example, my husband's a CEO. He's really strategic minded. He's a designer. He's very visual. He also has a lot of operational skills as well. But he gets excited about strategy. He that's where he jams out. And I get excited about making a damn schedule and putting it together and executing it. And there's just naturally these skills that we lean into that I don't think you can say every leader can do that. It's almost a fool's errand because ultimately they might be able to do it, but maybe 50% of the way, they're not 100% that you need to have.

Lindsey (00:24:48) - Yeah, exactly. One of the phrases that I use often is people in times of, you know, in difficult times, even difficult, it's not the right word, but tense times, challenging times, fast times, growth times. You know, the things that like, really getcha.

Ariana (00:25:05) - Yeah.

Lindsey (00:25:06) - Like people go to their default and that should be expected. I feel like of leaders as well. Like I think the people and this is why I struggle with this particular poke, because it puts so much pressure on a leader being everything, just like, this is such a weird aside, but like, the thing that just came to mind was you can't expect your partner to be everything for you.

Ariana (00:25:33) - Totally.

Lindsey (00:25:34) - Why would you expect your leader to be everything for you? Like they just can't. There are people too, and I think that the trend, at least in product and engineering, and hopefully my bosses aren't rolling their eyes at me right now, but like their defaults and the things they get excited about, to your point are why they are in their positions and why I'm in mine.

Lindsey (00:25:56) - And that should be of equal value.

Ariana (00:25:59) - Absolutely. And the good thing is, if you have the right chemistry between those specialists, then they stretch each other, right? Like when I'm working with the CEO, he has incredible vision. He's stretching my ability to see things that don't exist. Yeah, I'm stretching the ability for him to understand or for them to understand how we can actually make that happen. So we actually both get better. But you have to accept and you have to also, I mean, a lot of it is allowing tension to live, right? Like a lot of these conversations they're hot, you know, they're hot conversations. But again, I always find that if I can open my mind up to their world and they can open it up to mine, we're both better for it.Also, there's, you know, leadership…I feel like, you know, leaders are people. We look at them at this way because, you know, they've got the fancy title or whatever, whatever.

Ariana (00:26:52) - But ultimately they're just human beings with flaws, just like all of us, right? They're not going to be able to be everything, just like a partner can't be it. I actually love that because I think it's so true. There's nobody in your life that can be everything. It's impossible.

Lindsey (00:27:05) - Yeah, I think your mom story is funny because I imagine if my mom ever listens to this, she's going to be like, “my daughter was never like that she was a disaster”. But throughout my career. I realize, like, all the questions that I was asking, where is how do we do this better? Versus, like, a good product manager to me, the question that they ask is, why are we doing this and what's the next thing that we can do? And that to me is a product leader. Also, if we think about the questions that these people should be asking and own, there is a gap without operations of how do we do this better? Because the result of if you have, you know, a bunch of different leaders in different domains, which is is probably more applicable to biz ops.

Lindsey (00:27:55) - But I would say for like product engineering and design, if each of those leaders ask the question, how can we do this better? They're going three different directions. So there is also value by having it in a single department or human to think about that because of the cohesion required to actually be efficient, you can't just say, how are we efficient and then go do things and then expect everybody to be like, “oh, we're all efficient together”. Like that's that just doesn't work.

Ariana (00:28:24) - And there's organization for organization sake. Like me putting the sewing kit together. It was just, you know, organizing something. I'll give another personal example. My parents' pantry.. Every time I come home, I always organize their pantry. I put a labeling system in, and every time I come back, it's always chaos. And that actually, it actually is proving this point, which is it's not about me organizing, but it's about creating a system that works for my parents, which, you know, after like five years of doing this, I haven't quite yet.

Ariana (00:28:53) - So like I joke that my mom is my organizational nemesis, but like, but really it is about figuring out, you know, how do their brains work? How can we put this into a framework like you were talking about that works for them, not just creating process yo create process, it's really important to to weigh that together. And my mom is going to listen to this.

Lindsey (00:29:14) - I want you to double down on that, because that to me is like a big issue. And interpreting what operations people do, it's like, “oh, you're a process person”. Marty Cagan wrote that article about process people. And, you know, people were like up in arms about this thing. And it's like, process is only one way of doing things. I think in my career, the “how can we do this better” did become what is the process? How do we improve a process? But as I've grown in this career and seeing the realities of how people work and why I was so adamant that it's not process, it's framework, like you just said, it's like it's a system in which people use. If they're not using it, one, it’s garbage. Throw it in the trash, two if they do use it and it doesn't actually execute on the outcome. You have to fix it. So I think that's another thing of like the value that we can bring is having somebody basically retro-ing all the time about how things are done and how they need to be improved. Because in going back to the program conversation, it's not just say, “do the thing, deliver it right”. It's like, okay, we're going to try this. I've got…like I wanted to TM this phrase. It was like, “process experiments” because that's literally all that they are. We're going to introduce this thing and we're going to see how people behave. And then we're going to change it to this thing. I'm in the middle of planning right now. It's exactly what we're doing. Like it's a let's try this thing and hope that it fails, actually, so that we can figure out the right way to do it. And that takes a good amount of brainpower and like patience and observability skills and all the things.

Ariana (00:30:52) - Well, and that that retro piece when you're retro-ing, from my experience, your retro-ing about the 360 components that are going into that thing, that is the human element, that is technology, that's data, that's platforms, that's thinking about time zones that we work in, that's thinking about our customers. Right. So like a framework and its success rate is based on so many factors that as operators, we have to be able to really dive into and then slowly tweak and iterate until we find the thing that we want to unlock the process or the framework. Right? Like that's the hardest part, where most of the problems that I find that I'm solving, I'm like always thinking through “why is a human not doing this thing?” Yeah. What is this human? And then you talk to them. Right. And most of the time they'll tell you because the documentation sucks or I don't understand this platform or I really don't know why I'm doing this, that at least for listeners, for me, that was a really good kind of tip.

Ariana (00:31:51) - Always start with the people that are doing or not doing the thing, and talk to them about why it is or is not working, rather than kind of being in an echo chamber, which sometimes I don't know if you found like leadership strategy, you're sort of in an echo chamber of the same conversation for a lot. And you have to kick yourself out into something that's new. But I want to slightly shift gears because I want to talk about R&D. And I want to talk about the operations behind R&D. So my background is in consumer and product goods. And I really understand R&D in a physical sense, like in physical products that you can hold. But when it comes to digital products, I have an idea. It's not my experience. So can you talk about R&D in, you know, the tech space and how operations is coming into that part of the process?

Lindsey (00:32:43) - So, I've gotten feedback that, you know, R&D being something maybe don't use that term.

Lindsey (00:32:51) - But for whatever reason, R&D has picked up in the industry and was something that in my last role with the same leaders that I work with today, was important for us to articulate that how is product engineering and design seen together, and what's the word that we use for that united vision and strategy. And that was really the reason behind the term. I called it unicorns and pansies. And the intention behind it was that we are all working together towards the thing. I've had experiences where product has a strategy, engineering has a strategy, and design has a strategy that's wild to me that it would even exist. But that is a pattern that is very prevalent today. Like a lot of people I talk about in my roles and just generally in industry like that's not uncommon. And I think it's really and again, why like I negotiated on my title, is that it's really important that we operate singularly to execute on the things that we're all actually executing on together.

Lindsey (00:33:59) - Why would we ever separate it? And I know I'm just saying the same words over and over again of like, it's obvious, do the thing. But like there already enough potential…I don't want to say points of failure, but like bridges that you have to cross for an organization to deploy a successful strategy. Sales, marketing, product, engineering, all of these things where they can be brought together. And like I mentioned earlier, where there's overlap, I think that they should, um, not necessarily in the concept of one leader every time, but I think in operations is a good start to that. So I've worked with, you know, a head of product, head of engineering that are peers. I support both of them. I have always had more than one boss. And I think there's value to it.

Ariana (00:34:55) - Bosses, sometimes my boss is more senior, sometimes my boss is actually more junior. Meaning like I'm serving you and what the work that you're doing, and I need to learn from you, even if I've had 15 years of experience more.

Ariana (00:35:09) - It's not about that. It's different, I guess you could say stakeholders, but I look at it as like, how am I doing this work for you. Now, again, I'm bringing in from the physical space. It's usually one of the first kind of stages, but it seems like with R&D in the digital space, you might be hitting at multiple parts of the process. How are you threading your work into, you know, each release, each iteration, I guess. What order of operations does it fit in, if not omnipresent?

Lindsey (00:35:41) - Yeah, it's always there. And the thing with…I'm sure it exists in the physical space as well, but like iteration is so important. And so it's like always ongoing that any, any order of operations can happen at any time. Right. Which makes like the definition of how we work even harder. So but it's like, so a lot of product operation colleagues that I have in the industry. We all kind of come to an alignment of how we think about our work around the product development lifecycle, because it allows us to kind of compartmentalize where certain potential focus areas need to be for things to be more efficient.

Lindsey (00:36:22) - So if I were to speak to what that is like, what you just said at the beginning of the stage, research and development, I’d call that discovery that can again happen at any time. It's an inception of an idea and it is part of product operations, at least in my experience. Role, to help enable discovery avenues. So going to the customer and go-to market interlock, how are we getting feedback directly from customers, whether it be through beta programs, whether it be through, you know, ongoing in the product, whatever that avenue is straight from our field team, from sales, from marketing, with whatever marketing analysis they're coming up with. From maybe potential customer advisory boards, right. Different avenues of where you can get strong feedback to feed into the cycle. Product managers are responsible for interpreting it. We just support its cohesion and making sure that those processes are streamlined in a way that allow that information to flow freely.

Ariana (00:37:30) - And you're using all those pillars in that model.

Ariana (00:37:35) - You're using data, you're using platform, you're using tools, you're using frameworks, using all of these pieces to make sure that all of these aspects are connected. Which sounds so…I understand because I live it. Yeah. But it's for somebody who maybe is world. It's really creative thinking because you're looking at one very small component and then trying to see where the dominoes may fall or what dominoes may have fallen to get to this point. And that's where I'm always trying to figure it out and then figure out, okay, who is this affecting? At what point? How do we get buy-in? How do we get feedback? How do we look at the results of this? Do you find that as an operator you lean more creative or more analytical?

Lindsey (00:38:23) - Oh, definitely creative.

Ariana (00:38:24) - Creative.

Lindsey (00:38:25) - Definitely creative. Yeah. Like the data and insights pillar. I get it right. Like, I'm like, I know it's valuable. I know how to think about it, but only in the context of “we want a specific outcome therefore, I can determine what, you know, data that we need”, and then I hopefully have support and how to do that. Like that is not my strength. I think my strength is more in what you just tapped on, which is like my own discovery, my own problem solving of where are the gaps…like that product development life cycle is just that highest level of things that I can then go and basically research where are our pitfalls and where our successes, so I can go zoom in on stuff and apply that Temple of Zeus to those areas. Like that's…I love my job for that part. Like I had an uncle, hi uncle. Glad if you're listening to this. He would kind of poke fun at me in college of like, oh, you're majoring in anthropology. What are you going to do with that? And now I get to say I do a lot with it because it is basically people and groups, and I wish that I oh, maybe in my future, like human behavior and organizational psychology and all these things that are coming out, I would love to explore because I think there's such a strong relationship with what I do, but like what excites me.

Lindsey (00:39:47) - I majored in that because it excited me. Understanding, just observing people and why they do the things that you do. Just out of curiosity, I've just applied that to like the product way of working and it's so fun. Also because the people are so bright and in that particular segment, the impacts that I'm able to make is, you know, five steps away from a business outcome. But my value as a human being sparks because I'm helping people do the things five steps away versus when I was in sales and had a number. I was like, oh, cool, you paid me a commission check, which like first world problems, but at the same time, like, I inherently didn't feel valuable because it was like, okay, I'm one step there and I'm done. Like that. Complexity and creativity and problem solving is what drives me totally.

Ariana (00:40:41) - I'm with you 1,000%. I wish we had more time because I could pick your brain on many things, but I want to wrap up before learning a little bit more about you as a human being with, like, your personal values of what you bring into the space.

Ariana (00:40:53) - So I had to do this for myself when I started, you know, my own consulting business was like, what values do I want to bring into the work that I do? And I'm gonna reference my notes here because you've got some beautiful ones. Honesty. Growth. Partnership, freedom, fun, respect and wholeness. When did you realize you needed to articulate those? And what was the process of writing that down for yourself? Because I have a lot of conversations with people who I think are trying to figure out their next steps in their career or where they fit, and that's one piece I say is like, have you figured out your values of like, what you want to bring into the world? So talk us through that process and why it was important for you.

Lindsey (00:41:31) - Yeah. Oh my gosh, what a great thing that I did. I did not come up with the idea to be very clear, I was in therapy.

Ariana (00:41:43) - Where all good things happen.

Lindsey (00:41:44) - Yes.

Ariana (00:41:45) - Everybody should go to therapy.

Lindsey (00:41:45) - I didn't really go in for any specific reason. Not to say that I don't have problems, but like, I was challenged most, even today, most of my personal challenges do stem from work. I put a lot of my value in work. And I knew that and I was having trouble identifying why I was upset about, you know, certain things, why I didn't feel rewarded. Right. I think like a reason why a lot of people go and investigate, like who they are as people and, you know, like, do I need therapy or like why sitting here? Why am I having a hard time and I can't identify it? And the activity that the therapist walked me through was a card sorting activity, actually, which was like 200 something cards of different values, many of which were very similar in language. But you had to make the distinction between, you know, this versus that one, which one is actually telling the story.

Lindsey (00:42:38) - And you basically sorted between, this is me, this isn't me. And you did that in two different piles over and over and over again until you reached 5 to 7. I've tried to Google this before to see if I could get the deck, because I've recommended it to people so much that I would love to just send them the link. But basically, whenever I feel like I'm having a hard time or that I'm challenged, I reflect on the values and I say which value is not being served. And then I'm able to actually figure out how to go serve that value. And most of the time when it's challenges, it's through work. Right? Like to expect wholeness to always come through work is probably not fair. So even though I'm challenged in wholeness at this period of time, how in my personal life can I experience wholeness, maybe differently? Build out my own happiness?

Ariana (00:43:32) - Basically, yeah, hit that equilibrium that the scales might be off in one direction.

Ariana (00:43:37) - And how can I get it so that the tilt-a-whirl is a little bit straighter?

Lindsey (00:43:40) - Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I can give an example that I'm sure a lot of people are feeling today. I was laid off this year. It was a fairly dramatic, surprising thing. And for someone that puts value in work, it was like, Holy shit, is this something that I did right? There's lots of, like, things that come through. By the way, I wasn't in the first kind of, you know, riff and that had survivor's guilt. It was a very odd period of time, and I could immediately identify that my growth value was lost. Right? Because it was like, I can't see my next step in my career immediately. And I've almost always had that. I've been privileged in that way of like I've always been driving my own growth, which is huge for me. But at this point, it just wasn't really there. So I'm sure some people that I've worked with or that are in the product ops community can say, in the summer, I ramped up my content creation about product operations and like, what is my brand? I tried to find growth in another avenue, and that served me.

Lindsey (00:44:46) - I could have just sat in it and said, oh my gosh, I don't know why I'm feeling this way. And it just would have been much harder to identify than if I had, again, a framework to figure it out.

Ariana (00:44:59) - I, I so appreciate you opening up about that experience, because I also went through something similar when I left my full time job. After 2020, 2021. Craziness. Super burnt out was not the person that I knew. I was like a very depressed kind of shell of who I know I am. I had to kind of just say, I'm gonna leave this job and I'm not gonna have the next step. I'm just gonna have to leap into the unknown and then proceeded to have a panic attack because it was like, oh my gosh, where am I getting all these things from? And it was external, right? It was external things. And I had to go through the very difficult process of rebuilding value to me, and learning that muscle of how to prioritize that myself, not looking externally for those things.

Ariana (00:45:50) - And also like checking in and saying, hey, I feel off today, like what is going on and giving myself the freedom to say, you know, I've been at my computer for eight hours looking at data. I need to go for a walk. Just those little things you know, two years later, I am a different human being. I'm happier than I've ever been. I have way more tools in my toolbox to be able to enjoy my life professionally and personally than I've ever did. But it did take me just kind of like pulling the rug out and starting from scratch again and having to survive that. Which it's a, it's an internal mental battle more than a physical battle for me. Once you get to the other side of it, man, and I see other people who are about to go through it or they're in it, I'm like, just keep going. Just keep going. It's okay.

Ariana (00:46:42) - It's gonna go like this. The waves are going to go high and low, but just keep pushing forward and you'll get to a better future. So I appreciate that. I really feel that.

Lindsey (00:46:53) - Yeah, I did this activity when I was in my mid-twenties, which was like prime time to do it right. Like, now that I'm older, hindsight is 2020. Probably 5050, if we're honest. But like I like in the experience of me being laid off and finding my own growth avenue. Once I found that I was also able to free up other values to be tapped into, which is another thing. It's like you were saying, the equilibrium. As soon as I felt I had growth, there was relief, and then I could actually go outside and go paddleboarding for two hours and appreciate the time off that I actually had, not being so anxious about not having a future, like I was able to do both those things at the same time. I've also used it, and this is probably where it's most applicable aside from like day to day use, I mean, like people could go and take it and use it in some way in job searches. Basically, since I was in my 20s, I've evaluated what roles I take based on these values, because if you can assess which ones are going to be challenged, it might not be the right choice, depending on, you know, other areas of life than your strengths. And that's been super helpful for me. And I think there's lots of reasons why I think my career ramped up when it did, but I feel like this was a big one. It was able to be able to make the choices that truly allow me to thrive, not a choice that makes it seem like I'm thriving and I don't actually thrive.

Ariana (00:48:21) - Ooh, that gave me chills. You don't want a house of cards of that thriving. You want to feel it really deep down in a very grounded way. I want a whole other hour with you, but I know I need to share you.

Ariana (00:48:34) - So let's wrap up with a couple rapid fire questions to learn more about you as a human being. Since you're pretty dang awesome. So I'm going to shoot questions your way. You go with the first thing that comes in your head. First question is, what is your favorite part of the day?

Lindsey (00:48:51) - Oh my gosh, I just saw this this morning. And it's probably a lie that I'm telling myself now, but I'm going to share it anyway. I've started reading in the morning and like doing the New York Times little puzzle in the morning and all these things. I'm really loving mornings. That's my favorite time of the day, at least for now. Even though I never want to wake up as soon as I'm up that quiet time before. And I actually went on a drive this morning, my husband texted me and said, the mountains are popping, you should go drive. And I'm like, dogs in the car. I have the time. I got my coffee and I'm just looking at beautiful mountains and clear skies, and being able to do that just means that I'm not hitting snooze 50 times.

Ariana (00:49:25) - Oh, that sounds fabulous and gorgeous. Well, what book are you currently reading? When you wake up in the morning? You have this time. What are you up to?

Lindsey (00:49:33) - Oh, man, there's going to be judgment. I am currently reading a Harry Potter fanfiction called Manacold, which is very popular on TikTok right now. I've spent a lot of time reading fantasy. Um, so those Sarah James fans. I'm also very much looking forward to the January release finished Iron Flame. I'm deep into all of those trends right now, but Manacold is what I'm currently reading.

Ariana (00:49:59) - All right. Good to know. What is the best purchase that you've made under $50?

Lindsey (00:50:06) - I looked over in my side vision and I see fresh flowers. I will say always fresh flowers.

Ariana (00:50:12) - There's something about fresh flowers. I don't know what it is. There's some little magic in those.

Lindsey (00:50:18) - I saw something recently. Sorry. I know it's supposed to be rapid fire.

Lindsey (00:50:21) - But there's a woman that stated having fresh flowers by your bed when you wake up is like a very great way to start your day and, like, keep your stress levels low. Because what essentially means if you have time to, like, sit and smell the flowers, evolutionarily, that meant you had nothing coming to kill you. And most of our like, anxiety and fear is still driven by fight or flight response. So it's a way to kind of set your table right in the morning.

Ariana (00:50:52) - Set the tone. I'm gonna steal that for sure. That's a great idea.. Keep going, keep going. What is your favorite quote?

Lindsey (00:51:02) - Well, I'm going to say too, because they are for different reasons. “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different outcome”, which is very apropos for operations, I would say..

Ariana (00:51:13) - Apropos for sure.

Lindsey (00:51:15) - Another one that I don't think has a lot of love and it doesn't even really have an author…it's not a quote, but I'm going to share the poem because it came to mind.

Lindsey (00:51:21) - It's called After a While, the author is Veronica something? It's from the 70s. It was read at my wedding. It's beautiful. But there was a response poem written called After After a While. The premise is basically like “how important it is to find your own self-love before asking love from another”. And the After After a While response is to say, now that you found love for yourself, you understand how to expect love from another. And what a glorious gift it is to have. Perfect means being imperfect, but gives you the joy of living in another person's garden.

Lindsey (00:52:02) - A paraphrase of one of the lines.

Ariana (00:52:04) - But that is beautiful. I'm going to grab that after this chat.

Lindsey (00:52:09) - That's my brother was bummed he had to read the whole thing because it took him like five…what a long poem. To be serious, they're long.

Ariana (00:52:19) - Hahaha he is a good brother. That's a very good brother. What is something that makes you little-kid happy?

Lindsey (00:52:27) - My husband and I go downhill mountain biking.

Ariana (00:52:31) - That's scary.

Lindsey (00:52:33) - A lot of people think it's scary, but for whatever reason, like, as if my frontal lobe never develops because I'm on a hill. I'm like, oh, my God, it's a roller coaster. Oh, a tree, I could die, but like, I don't care. I have so much fun and like, we're hooting and hollering and shit and it's just. Yeah, blast.

Ariana (00:52:50) - My body immediately started sweating. When you said that, I was like–

Lindsey (00:52:54) - I'm like let’s go outside. Yeah, I could be going right now.

Ariana (00:52:59) - Last one, which is, what do you want to be when you grow up?

Lindsey (00:53:03) - So this is another thing where the values conversation comes in. I don't have a title for you anymore because that's not how I make my choices. I make my choices through a visualization activity that I started around the same time as I identified my values. It's what do you want your life to feel like? So in the morning I visualize.

Lindsey (00:53:21) - Not every morning, but sometimes. What is my ideal morning? My life? What's my day look like and what I want to be when I grow up is a woman that's able to sit with her husband and have a beautiful view and enjoy a cup of coffee in the morning and sit down with like-minded people and have amazing problem solving, constructive conversations that build relationships and joy across the entire team with strength and trust. And then I go home and I read my books in front of a fireplace, which is not dissimilar from what I do today. So I get to start my day off feeling pretty dang grateful.

Ariana (00:54:00) - That sounds fabulous and honestly came to life as soon as you said it to me. People are listening. They want to follow you. They want to see what you're up to. Where can they find you?

Lindsey (00:54:12) - They can find me on LinkedIn. So my name currently is Lindsey Bell. But as soon as I get my new driver's license in a couple months, it might be Lindsay Shea, but either way, I'll have Lindsay Bell indicated somewhere there.

Lindsey (00:54:24) - I don't post as often as I used to. But I would love some engagement on things. I love everyone's perspectives on stuff. Especially as product ops is forming. I think the only thing we can do is talk more and refine what it is together, rather than leading with a definition and expecting follows.

Ariana (00:54:43) - Thank you so much, Lindsey, for being on Secret Ops. I really just enjoy your company, let alone being able to talk about operations. It's really been a joy.

Lindsey (00:54:53) - Yeah, I can't wait to see where you land. And maybe I'll come visit you and we can actually hang out. It's such a blast. I love this. I was very excited. You know, I wasn't sure when I got the reach out. And then as soon as we met, I'm like, of course I would do this. Not that I wouldn't have to begin with because, you know, self-promotion is never a bad idea, but–

Ariana (00:55:12) - I appreciate you trust-falling into me, into the world of secret ops. I really do think that people will learn so much from you in our discussion. Maybe we'll have part two. Listeners, thank you so much for listening to Secret Ops or watching Secret Ops on YouTube, but please remember to follow us wherever you find your podcast or subscribe to our channel on YouTube and we will see you next time. Bye!