Ariana (00:00:06) - Welcome to Secret Ops, the podcast uncovering the world of business operations. One episode at a time. I'm your host, Ariana Cofone, and today's guest is Al Chen solutions architect at Coda and a master Excel wizard. Al, welcome to Secret Ops. Thank you so much for being here.

Al (00:00:27) - It's so great to be here. Thanks Ariana.

Ariana (00:00:30) - I wanna kick off by talking about your journey and your career, where you started, how you ended up as a solutions architect at Coda.

Al (00:00:39) - Sure. I studied at NYU for my undergrad. I majored in marketing and finance at the business school. And coming out I was expecting to go into investment banking. I was in trading, typical finance jobs that many of my peers went into. Got rejected left and right by all the banks. And this little company called Google back then fell into my lap and I somehow got let an interview and eventually got a job there as a financial analyst for three years. So I basically learned how to use Excel in and out. I was building models, doing analysis, and just automating stuff with VBA here and there. And I realized after three years I wanted to kind of be more client facing and be more on the business side. So I actually moved to the sales side and became just a regular account manager working with different clients.

Al (00:01:29) - And after five total years at Google, I decided to take off and do my own thing. So I became a freelance Excel consultant, continuing to build Excel models and dashboards and tools for my freelance clients. I traveled the world for a few months, did my own kind of startup with a friend of mine and tried playing professional basketball for a little bit. That totally failed. And in 2017, one of my friends who I started with at Google back in 2007, he was working at this startup back in the day called Krypton. And he was like, Hey, hey, I know you're super into Excel, you have all this knowledge and you do freelance work. Can you test out this product that I'm working on with my my CEO? So the Krypton was this blend of Google Docs and tables and when I started using this, man I thought this is kind of pretty shitty.

Al (00:02:26) - Now, I would never use this instead of Google Sheets or Excel. And so I kind of dismissed it and never thought about it again. And then a few months later the product went into beta and was also renamed to this company called Coda. And when it came out of beta, I was like, holy shit, this is actually pretty cool. And I actually started using it as a tool for my clients and recommending it to my clients. And that's when the light bulb went, went off. I became super active in the community, I was creating YouTube videos about it. And eventually I was thinking what do I wanna do next with my career? And I joined Coda in 2018 as a solutions architect building templates and docs. Four and a half years later, I'm still here.

Ariana (00:03:09) - There is so much to unpack there. Just backtracking to Google, when you talk about modeling, can you explain what that means for people who maybe aren't as familiar with the data side of operations or product development?

Al (00:03:24) - Yeah, I think there's a very romantic definition of modeling and also a kind of practical definition. So I'll go with the kind of more romantic side of things. So when I think of modeling and it's really kind of how do you encapsulate human behavior and human processes that are very abstract into something that's ones and zeros inside Excel formula. That's kind of the romantic definition. How do you take this complex and abstract world that we live in and create a model that allows you to forecast what may happen in the future? The reason why I said it's romantic is because it sounds kind of cool, it's really unique, but the more practical side of things is you need to do this in order to drive revenue, in order to cut expenses, in order to make more efficient workflows. So you start taking all these variables and trying to take these disparate pieces of information and create a model in Excel that can help you forecast what these costs and expenses will be in the future. And then hopefully, you know, it's in line with what the executives wanna see and then so on and so forth. So a lot of it's just kind of thinking about business situations, processes and putting them into cells inside an Excel sheet.

Ariana (00:04:46) - So if we think about your time when you started at Google versus your time when you left Google, what would you say your Excel skills were when you started versus coming out of that?

Al (00:04:56) - It changed immensely. I learned so much by just being thrown into the fire. I never took an Excel class prior to working at Google. I was completely new to Excel. I say this a lot when I talk about it. I used to think Excel was that, you know, super old tool that my dad used to balance budgets. And when I was thrown into this financial analyst role, I was expected to learn. And they did provide us a seven day training with this company called Training the Street. They really meant for investment banking associates and sales and traders. Not really meant for kind of back office internal finance, which is what I was doing. But there was seven days of hardcore, how do you do a discounted cash flow analysis? How do you build a leverage buyout model? And most of this information was not relevant to me and my colleagues because it was all about finance. But the 5% of the class that took away was keyboard shortcuts and how to write formulas. And so, you know, you take that into your job and then you're thrown into the fire and you just have to learn by Googling stuff.

Ariana (00:06:05) - I wanted to ask that question because I think a lot of people when we hear modeling and you know, forecasting all these things, it's assumed that you learn these skills and then you go into a job and you're using these skills from school or whatever training you had. And I think the majority of the time when it comes to operations or data analysis, you're learning the skills as you go and you're literally just thrown into the deep end to figure out how to use them. Can you kind of talk through why you started doing that kind of work and distilling that information for others?

Al (00:06:35) - It really started because I was the Excel guy on my team when I was at Google and a lot of my teammates, especially when I was working in sales, didn't really know how to use Excel. And so one time I was like, you know, guys, I'm tired of explaining myself 10 times and explaining the same patterns and keyboard shortcuts. And so I just booked a conference room and I said, Hey, I'm gonna do an Excel training and almost my entire team joined that training and I was like, holy shit, I can't believe some people, so many people care about Excel cuz we're using Excel every single day even in a sales capacity. And that initial experience kind of turned into me, started teaching Excel internally at Google to other teams and divisions. And right after I left Google, I started working with this online education platform called Skillshare.

Al (00:07:28) - And they were just back in 2013 and 14, they were just starting to get into teaching business classes. So I was one of the first business classes on the platform teaching Excel and I kind of just recycled the same classes I was teaching at Google into this online class. And that's kind of how it started. And personally I think we all love helping people, personally when I see someone learn the V-lookup formula for the first time or learn how to automate something, you see that kind of visceral joy in their eyes and their face. It's a very kind of gratifying feeling. I think unlocking that type of productivity or efficiency in people is kind of cool. And yeah, that's kind of how I started teaching Excel.

Ariana (00:08:20) - Well this kind of leaps beautifully into Coda because I mean, as someone who I would say is an Excel expert because not only have you used it in your day-to-day for business purposes, but you've also taught it. And I think learning something is one level of understanding a tool, but then teaching is a whole other level. So you have a very in-depth knowledge of Excel, which means that Coda must have been something pretty brilliant. What was that moment, I guess when you started using Coda when it was in beta that really sort of a light bulb went on and you wanted to shift more of your world into Coda as a tool?

Al (00:09:02) - The big unlock was when I realized I could actually use the tool for my freelance clients at the time when I was still kind of a freelance Excel consultant. Cuz some of my clients, they needed something that was online and collaborative and so I would instantly default them to instantly say, oh, well let's try doing this in Google Sheets. But then there were certain limitations in Google Sheets that we couldn't get around. And so when I started realizing Coda could be a good replacement for what they were doing in Excel Google Sheets, that was a big unlock for me.

Ariana (00:09:34) - Let’s get into your day-to-day life at Coda. So the title solutions architect, I'm gonna say it sounds pretty badass. It sounds like you're building little mini sim kind of worlds, but talk me through what this means. What is your day-to-day life ultimately as a solutions architect? What are you responsible for at Coda?

Al (00:09:54) - The, title is actually something I came up with when I first joined because they didn't know what to call me. I joined when Coda was around 30-something people. And we know that you're kind of a mix of marketing, you can use the product really well. So I said yeah, I think solutions are architects team is a good role. I see it at other companies and you know, Amazon, Google, whatever. They all have this role. So it's seemed like a good fit. And day-to-day right now, I recently joined our customers team, but a solutions architect on the customers team…what we typically do is we look at some of our big team users. These are big companies, fortune 500, and we essentially help them figure out if Coda is the right solution for them given their current workflows, processes, and tooling.

Al (00:10:43) - So one thing I do a lot is take it apart in existing crappy Google Sheet that they're using internally that's just not working. Either it's too slow, it's too manual, or it just doesn't work. And I try to be creative and think of a way to quote-unquote model that within a Coda doc and using all of our features, buttons, automations, the views, views feature, and try to build a proof of concept that will show the power of Coda and just enough to get them to think, okay, this could be a step change above what the Google Sheet is. So a lot of it's taking apart existing workflows, existing tooling and some of, and we'll probably get into this in a bit, but it's also trying to understand what their internal team culture and processes are like. Because a lot of things that people do on your team, they're not written down anywhere. They're just kinda like, this how we do things, we do this because of X, Y, Z.

Ariana (00:11:43) - This gets into my question really beautifully actually. Cause I think that there's different ways to approach creating processes or operations or technology solutions for people. And to bucket them into two larger categories, you have the opportunity-mindset approach where you're trying to find new ways of moving something forward or working in an entirely different way, or you have a problem-first mindset where you're looking for the gaps or the headaches and trying to fix those. So what would you say is your approach within an operational lens? Are you more opportunity-focused or are you more problem-first mindset.

Al (00:12:22) - I'm very much problem first mindset because at least when I'm working with our customers, they're coming to us with immediate pain. I can't do this because our Excel file or Google sheet sucks. So, I get very into problem solving mode of, okay, let's find the root cause of this problem. Figure out why Excel or Google Sheets is falling behind and then can is Coda the right solution now, ultimately have to figure out and be kind of the technical advisor to see if Coda is the solution. And I'll be very transparent. I'll say, no, it's not the answer because of X, Y, and Z. So I just sort of solve the problem, the pain point as soon as possible. But then I start branching off and all our teams, we're all interrelated. The support team has to work with the sales team and they have to work with the operations, the marketing, engineering, everything is related. And so you start to think about how can I spread the tentacles in this case of a Coda doc to make sure that all these other teams are also being aligned and understand how to be more efficient.

Ariana (00:13:27) - I also find myself doing the same thing. I think because when I'm working with clients, there's a big issue that's happening though. It's sometimes hard to be that opportunity focused person when you're literally trying to put out a fire. Also, because oftentimes, and I'm sure you find this as well, you'll have a client that says, Hey, here's this thing that needs I need help with, or I have a problem that needs to be solved. But then when you actually dig into whatever the thing is that they're talking about, you realize that's actually just a symptom of a problem that's five layers deep. It's just very hard to be opportunity-mindset sometimes in operations because of that. It's just you're trying to find all of the layers that influence the thing that you're trying to solve. Can you find that with clients that you're working with?

Al (00:14:11) - All Oh yeah. All the time. And what's difficult sometimes is the root ends up being, again, a very abstract culture problem that has nothing to do with data. And that's what’s interesting about this role, I think is because you're ultimately dealing with people and people are not perfect and people have desires and wants and deficiencies and we're not taught in school how to, you know, optimize a shared spreadsheet with your teammates. And so these are all things you figure out along the way. And of course there's gonna be inefficiencies because there's no perfect system for every single team, for every single situation. And so it just come, kind of comes down to how do you best work with your teammates and you know, who needs what at what time? And these are all this type of like human…team culture and processes questions more than data needs to come in and out kind of things.

Ariana (00:15:10) - Definitely. Well, and that gets to a more high level look at operations. Where do you begin trying to solve a problem from a process standpoint? Is it from the client? What is your headache? Is it looking at their current processes? Is it looking at the data? You know, where is step number one?

Al (00:15:31) - In the, I guess in the customer sales process, if you will, we call this, discovery which is more, more or less like an interview. I just kind of talk to the potential customer and just have them explain their background, the problems they're facing and the story, if you will, of their team. And once I have that in my mind, and I've done this so many times, I recognize these patterns, whether it's a marketing team or operations team or a customer support team or a sales team, you start to see these same patterns over and over again because most of these teams kinda operate the same. And then along the way I start asking, this is literally what I do is, oh, can you show me what this looks like? Can you share your screen? And then I see the way they use their Google sheet, I see the way they use their Google docs, the way I see, the way they use all their other SaaS tools, and I can see why they're feeling frustrated.

Al (00:16:25) - And you can sense it in the way they speak too. You hear sighs like, oh I, then have to copy this thing and put it here and then I have to copy this in an email. And then Joe never responds to this when I ask for a status update, and you can hear the frustration. And then that's when you feel, oh, I hit upon a pain point and then that's when my wheels are turning about, okay, I can now see where their pain is and I can also know what to do when I wanna put this into a Coda. And so it's an interview and just very qualitative data and then it leads into, show me what you're actually talking about.

Ariana (00:17:05) - That gets back to what we were talking about finding the root of the problem versus the symptom. And I completely agree, getting a person to tell the story about how they work is more powerful than actually saying, Hey, what do you need fixed? Because they might not be aware of all the tools at their disposal to fix the thing. Right?

Al (00:17:25) - Yeah. I think if you're just trying to solve the immediate problem, you might not be fixing the root cause you said, because someone will come to me and say, oh yeah, I have a hard time getting my team to respond to me on Slack. And that's the pain point. So if you just solve for that pain point, you might be fixing just that little thing of doing a reminder. But then as you peel back the onion, you'd realize there's a bigger problem behind the scenes and you really need to solve that and not this simple little thing. Because when someone comes to you and they have a pain point, they're just talking to you about their immediate frustration and you can solve that frustration today, but it's not gonna solve the bigger problem tomorrow.

Ariana (00:18:03) - This ties beautifully into the tools part of operations. So obviously you have a tool that you work with very closely. Coda, I just for reference, I absolutely love the tool, it's one of my favorite tools to use, I think for all the reasons why you love it. But I think when you're approaching operations, like you said, sometimes the tool that you love is not always the tool to solve the problem. So how do you go about deciphering an operational problem from the tools that could solve that?

Al (00:18:34) - That's the million dollar question. And something I'm still trying to figure out myself as well. And I sometimes think about the context in which I'm being presented the problem because I said before I might be working with someone and they're saying, oh, I have this problem and I might be able to get the root cause figured out. But then the root cause I realize is actually, you know, there's something wrong with leadership and the way that they think about, I don't know, marketing is completely different and completely wrong. And so in order for me to really solve this problem, it's almost a team culture organizational change that has to happen. And that's not something a tool can solve. That's management and leadership, being able to come down with the right strategy. And so once I start peeling back the onions and I realize, this is way bigger than a tooling problem, I don't say, Hey, you guys are gonna change your management to figure out your strategy. I don't say that, but I'll say we can fix this. But I would also suggest that, you know, you have to get this team involved and that team involved and just kind of lightly point at these more overall process changes that need to happen. I just try to have an honest conversation with what they can potentially do to fix a problem.

Ariana (00:19:47) - Yeah, I can't tell you how many times somebody's come to me and said, we need a task management platform. I need to have transparency into how we do things as a business. And I have built, you know, a system with a task management platform that ultimately doesn't get used because it's actually not the problem, whether it's communication or how the team checks in or how there's accountability. You can build it with tools and processes, but if you're not thinking through the people lens you, it just doesn't work. Lessons along the way in operations . So what do you think people get wrong about operations? You and I have both been in that world in varying different types of functionality, but what do you think people who haven't been in that world get wrong about it?

Al (00:20:36) - Wow, that's a great question. I think people don’t realize operations is a function that exists to make team processes better. And it's a very kind of human and organizational behavior type of role because you have to understand how the entire company sometimes operates and thinks and everything from the mission, the values, the culture. People think operations is very oh, step one, step two, step three. We use this tool for that and this tool for these problems. But all these processes exist for reasons because we are trying to solve very human problems, which is how do we work effectively with each other? And sometimes it involves a more softer and emotional side of operations, which is how do you convince an internal stakeholder to believe in your process? How do you convince your teammates to adapt to a new process? And these are all kind of, skills around persuasion and sensitivity and inclusiveness that I think operations people are not necessarily associated with. You might think of someone that can do user research or maybe someone in HR that would deal with this kind of stuff, but I think operations people are by default kind of these internal team psychologists that have to understand these patterns.

Ariana (00:22:01) - Wow, I could not agree more on every single aspect of that. The human element of operations is something that people definitely consider within the HR component, but it goes into every single aspect, legal, finance, technology, product and in operations I think one of the strongest skills I've had to learn over the years is stakeholder management. And that's stakeholders of all different levels from the most senior to the most junior members of the team. You have to be able to take them all along this journey so that you're ultimately functioning, you know, in sync with each other. So all the technology and the data and the processes just enable us to do that kind of work. So this springboards nicely into what do you think is the hardest part of operations? When you wake up, there's a lot of things to look forward to, but what's that one thing that you're like, oh God, this is the, this is the hardest bit to do?

Al (00:22:58) - Yeah, I'll say two things. The first thing is actually just piggybacking off of what you just said about stakeholder management, which is you could build the most perfect solution and solve the immediate problem and maybe the bigger root cause. But if you can't convince and persuade the stakeholder, the champion, to fall in love with this process and to really find, be passionate about this process, then that solution, you know, whether it's Excel, Google Sheets, Coda or whatever, it's not gonna go anywhere.

Ariana (00:23:29) - I was just gonna say alongside that too, the trust that has to be built, for example, if you're working with a stakeholder or working with a team to be persuasive is ultimately about having just inherent trust in each other. You know, I wanna solve your problem as much as you do and I'm gonna tell you all the right tools and all the things that you shouldn't be doing or using to get there. Building that trust for me goes so hand-in-hand with that persuasion aspect and stakeholder management.

Al (00:23:56) - Yeah, for sure. Number two, I'll say really quickly, and this is more of a tactical thing, which is edge cases. You might have built this solution thinking you've personally have thought about all the different edge cases you've interviewed and talked to your stakeholders and you think you've baked into account all the different scenarios that may happen. But then you wake up Monday morning and you realize something's broken and they come to you and say, Hey, this isn't work because of X, Y, and Z. And you're like, oh shit, I didn't think about that edge case. That's always a fun thing because they’re always changing. People are always changing and so new situations and scenarios and edge cases will pop up.

Ariana (00:24:34) - Oh my god, that is such a good point. And sometimes I find with edge cases…they're not worth solving sometimes. Sometimes a person that's maybe outside of the flow of how the team is working and it's less about solving the problem with a technology or a platform or a process and working with that person to do what they do a little differently. Cuz also it's not just building something out, it's also maintaining it as well. So I could say, yeah, we could build this out, but is it worth maintaining for this one edge case? There's that aspect that goes into building anything around technology as well. At the end of the day is people, are people gonna really put in the effort to keep this going because that's also a huge part of operations, building it, rolling it out, maintaining it, and there's a happy balance there. So I guess this gets to sort of the, what advice would you give somebody that would wanna transition into more of an operational role?

Al (00:25:32) - I mean this is kind of a bias, but I would say definitely learn how to use Excel and Google Sheets and Coda for that matter. You'll have to learn how to use certain tools and unfortunately, fortunately spreadsheets continue to be the tool that most companies use to manage their processes or workflows, their internal knowledge and data. So knowing those tools will take you a long way in getting a job. And I can't really see many operations roles that don't require you to have knowledge of Excel spreadsheets or Google Sheets. I think secondly, is don't just think that, the role you're applying for has to have operations in the title. It can be a variety of roles that require you to have an operational and kind of logical mindset. Not limiting yourself to roles that just have the word operations in them will allow you to transition to a role in operations.

Ariana (00:26:31) - Yeah, I mean that's good point. And it echoes back to when you joined Coda, you created a new title, right? Solutions architect. Right? Oftentimes when I'm talking to people that have similar backgrounds or similar operational brains, you might be searching for titles that don't exist yet. Your role may not exist because business is moving really fast and they need all these kind of technical translators and operational specialists. So I guess opening your mind to saying, hey, I can use this sort of medium in any kind of role no matter the title is a good way of approaching it.

Al (00:27:06) - I also think joining a startup would also give you great operational experience because as you can imagine, people in a startup are just running all over the place and no one is really there thinking about how do I establish a process for our customer support? There's a great talk, maybe we can link to this, but it's from Tanya Riley, she's a software engineering manager I believe, and she gave a talk called Being Glue, which is that person who just does all unsexy work of bringing teams together. This talk this really opened my mind about there are people out there, mostly operations people who are the glue between 10 different teams within the company. And so I think if you can have that mindset of I want to be the glue, I want to be the one that does all the dirty work to tie all the things together, which usually happens at a startup, that's really a great kind of mentality and skillset to have.

Ariana (00:28:00) - Oh, that is such a good point. There's all these sticky points within a business and definitely startup world, you know, that's where I come from. You just jump in and you figure it out, right? You learn the skills along the way. You just try and look at the problem and figure out where the root cause is coming from and fix all of those problems along the way. And that's a great training ground to build that muscle because then years happen, then all of a sudden mentally you can look at problems and solve 'em in such a faster way. Cuz you've had all those experiences, right? Like you were talking about, you can start to see patterns and how teams function and the tools that they use and problems that you have. So it's really just about gaining that experience and working that muscle to really start to be in that operational capacity.

Al (00:28:43) - Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Ariana (00:28:46) - So I wanna wrap up with some rapid fire questions that talk more about you as a human being outside of the operational lens. So we're gonna make these fast and snappy and just go with your gut instinct on them. Before we wrap up for today.

Al (00:29:01) - Let's do it.

Ariana (00:29:02) - The first one is, what morning rituals do you start your day with every day?

Al (00:29:08) - I eat the same exact breakfast every single day. And I also do some pushups and pullups just to give my body, right? I can't wake up and not do those things otherwise, my day is completely ruined.

Ariana (00:29:23) - What's the breakfast? We gotta know.

Al (00:29:26) - Oh, I recorded it once. I sent it to my friends and they're like, we can't believe you eat this much food in the morning. And I just, I love breakfast, so I make an omelet. This is gonna sound disgusting. But I make an omelet with some deli meat, some veggies, but I also boil broccoli on the side and I just put sriracha over everything and it tastes delicious. I look forward to it every single day. It's so stupid and boring, but I love it. And then I'll have whole oatmeal, my god bowl cereal, banana, yogurt. It's a buffet.

Ariana (00:29:55) - Oh my god, that's nuts. Okay, that's crazy. I also need to see this picture. Second question is, what rituals do you wind down or use to wind down at the end of the day?

Al (00:30:06) - Well, I turn off my phone. That's the big thing. I'm a big believer in not using your phone when you're in bed, so I don't, I just turn off my phone, honestly. That's the only main ritual I can think of. Other than that I try to read something before I sleep because I don't know, reading just puts me to sleep. So I'm reading this book right now called Exhalation by Ted Chang and it's this fiction writer who writes about this really kind of a sci-fi kind of things. And it's out there, but it's, it's almost black mirrored type of stuff, but it just makes me fall asleep easier. So shutting off my phone and trying to read something before I sleep.

Ariana (00:30:46) - Next one is, what is your favorite quote?

Al (00:30:50) - Favorite quote? I actually, I still have this in my childhood bedroom back in Detroit where I grew up and I forgot who the exact person was, but the quote is something along the lines of, find something you love and find someone who will pay you for doing it. That's the quote.

Ariana (00:31:05) - Along that line, what's the most important lesson you've learned?

Al (00:31:10) - It's super generic, but just be curious. I think curiosity will take you very far in whatever field of work you're in and constantly just asking questions. And this ties into actually a work-related quote or lesson that I got from one of my managers at Google back in the day when I was an analyst. And he just said, the good analyst is constantly questioning the current reality, the current state of affairs, and you're not satisfied with the current truth, if you will. So you're always asking questions. And underlying that, just having this very curious mindset where you're always trying to figure out why something works, why something doesn't work, and that's how you kind of solve problems.

Ariana (00:31:52) - Now the last rapid fire question is, what do you wanna be when you grow up?

Al (00:32:00) - I'm gonna answer this in a roundabout way, which as I'm getting older, I think about what I wanna do with my life, my career. And the answer I've come to is that I want to have 10 or a hundred careers before I die. So I don't wanna be something or one thing when I grow up. I want to be a solutions architect. I want to be a real estate broker, I want to be an artist, I want to be a construction worker. I just feel like our life is so short to pigeonhole yourself into one thing and doing one thing for the most of your life. So I actually want to have 10 different careers throughout the course of my life.

Ariana (00:32:38) - I love that Al. Al, always such a joy to talk to you. Thank you so much for your time. If people wanna find you, where can they?

Al (00:32:48) - All the usual places on LinkedIn. I'm just Al Chen on Twitter, I have this stupid Twitter handle called BigAl123. So check me on Twitter and then also if you want to see some templates that I've built in Coda. Cause all I do is build templates is just coda.io/bc.

Ariana (00:33:09) - You can also check out all his own podcast called Data Analyst as well.

Al (00:33:13) - Oh, yes, I have one. It's, more about data analysis and data science cuz it's a topic I've always been interested in. And so yeah, data analysts is also a good podcast to check out.

Ariana (00:33:24) - Everyone, thank you so much for listening to Secret Ops. Please follow us wherever you find your podcast and check us out secret-ops.com. See you next time.