Ghazaleh (00:00:00) - Your own personal life gets affected by life. That's how it happens. How do you move on as a collective and bring everyone along for the journey? Also recognizing that the business is super important, but the business is separate to you. It's a separate entity.

Ariana (00:00:16) - Welcome to Secret Ops, the podcast uncovering the world of operations one episode at a time. I'm your host, Ariana Cofone, and today's guest is Ghazaleh Youshani, who is truly a seasoned operator within the financial and startup world. She's led roles as a managing director, head of operations, chief operating officer and much more. It was really a treat to get to jump into her experience and a different kind of episode. We talk more holistically about what it's like to get into operations and evolve in that world throughout your career, as well as what it's like to be a woman in the industry and how that's changed over time. I gained so much out of it, and I hope you do as well. So let's jump into the episode! Ghazaleh thank you so much for coming on Secret Ops today.

Ariana (00:01:10) - We met through a mutual friend, and then I realized that we were sort of like soul sisters, maybe from different countries, but we had so much in common and you've got such an interesting journey through operations and we've got a lot to unpack on this episode, But I just want to thank you for for being here and being willing to share your knowledge with us.

Ghazaleh (00:01:30) - Thank you, Ariana. Delighted to be here and warm welcome to everyone who's listening, all your listeners. Thank you so much for having me.

Ariana (00:01:38) - Yeah, of course. We have got to start with your journey, which I think we're going to take a little bit more time to unpack the normal guests because there's so much to it and I have tons of questions about it. So let's start like, how did you even start getting into operations? How did you know to start that as a career and then take us through that journey?

Ghazaleh (00:01:58) - Absolutely. I was going to say, how long have you got? Okay, sure.

Ghazaleh (00:02:03) - I will do some scene setting and conscious that I am based in the UK. Certain things might be UK centric, so I'll try and change it around for your US listeners, but let's sort of go back to what we call here the early noughties. So sort of early 2000 I was studying for my undergraduate degree at university full time. I was studying French with Business at a university that is part of the sort of overarching University of London called Queen Mary and Westfield. At that time when I was studying French with business, to be completely honest, I think, well, I'd like to think like most sort of 19 year olds. I had no clue of where I wanted to go professionally. I think, you know, so much is out there I mean more so now, right? I think with the advent of social media and the world becoming a smaller place, you know, there's so much out there and it's fascinating, but it can be confusing nevertheless. You know, I'm a child of immigrant parents.

Ghazaleh (00:03:13) - And as you're growing up and sort of being the eldest, the choices are doctor, lawyer, engineer, accountant or engineer lawyer, accountant, doctor. So those are kind of the options. And, you know, I liked school to a certain degree. I liked learning. I didn't like studying. I've seen some refreshing things on social media about people sort of saying, well, maybe not everyone learns in this way. Maybe people learn differently and different people have different abilities and different skill sets and why don't we work with that? Which is wonderful to see. But long story short, so I'm studying for my degree and I did the classic of, you know, I was self funded. I was trying to pay my way as a as a student and did various odd jobs and think I was always conscious of the fact that whilst I didn't know the sort of the avenue I wanted to take my professional career in, I always knew the the type of individual I was, I was trying to work towards and the individual that I wanted to be and have something at the end of the day with my career that has a form of integrity and build things and an element of creativity and something that as an operator, you really have to have.

Ghazaleh (00:04:36) - Right? And I'm sure you can pay heed to this in your journey. There's an element, a huge element of creativity, a huge element of lateral thinking. And whilst there are processes that you have to pay heed to, sometimes it's like, okay, this isn't working, I've got to change.

Ariana (00:04:54) - That is just really interesting to think about. I've never thought of it this way. You knew who you wanted to be, but you weren't sure what that was going to look like. It's so interesting because I think I was just literally just like, you know, trying to find my way in the dark as a human and as a, you know, what my career is going to look like. But that's such a beautiful, actually pro-tip for people listening. Which is, you know, who do you envision yourself to be? That medium or that role might not even exist yet, you know, culturally, societally. But knowing what you want to feel like and be like within the world, that can actually give you a lot of direction.

Ariana (00:05:30) - That's a really…I'm gonna steal that for my life. It's a great idea.

Ghazaleh (00:05:36) - It's yours. One of the common themes at that time that kept coming up was about the world of finance. Now, obviously, and we'll get into that later. The world of finance and financial services is huge. There are so many different types of institutions. There are different types of roles. There's a lot to it. And so I thought, okay, well, how do I even get involved in this? And lots of…I was very fortunate to have, you know, either sort of through my parents friends or sort of getting out there and talking to the university, trying to talk to people and, okay, what is this beast that's finance and what's investment banking? What is this all about? And I think really the best advice at that time was just to keep it simple. You know, it's super early days. It's brilliant that you're hungry and you're excited and you're motivated because one of the things for me was that I always just wanted to push forward. I just wanted to get going. And it was the days when human resources weren't as much of a gatekeeper as they are now. I think it was the time when you could, if you found an address or if you found it, a number. This is way going back so I'm giving away my age. You could probably, you know, knock on doors, Cool. People write letter after letter after letter. And if you were lucky, you would get a form of a response. So I wrote to all the investment banks, tried as hard as I could, and then someone kind of mentioned a certain investment bank and they knew and they'd kind of work there. So I was like, okay, I'll give it a go. And I got very lucky because in my second year of university, what started as an internship at this investment bank and it was super simple…I was working with data sets, very, very entry level position turned into a part time job.

Ghazaleh (00:07:26) - Even though I was studying full time, I would sort of try and allow a sense of adaptability and flex because Queen Mary's, for those people, don't know…it's based in the east of London, which was several tube stops away from the center of London, where the city is based, and the majority of investment banks are based. So I would do some lectures or do some seminars, hop on the train, go to this investment bank, work there for a couple of hours, and then vice versa, and then go back. And culturally, it was fascinating because it was my first foray into a professional environment. And I think looking back on it, what was really important was just there are moments where you need to just sit and observe in your career. And I think that was a chapter of sitting and observing, whether it was the professional environment or how people carry themselves, the different roles that people did. What did that actually mean? What were they actually bringing to the table? How does this organization work? And learning that and taking that away. And it was hugely it was a really a defining moment.

Ghazaleh (00:08:35) - And it was bizarre because all of my friends would sit in the student union bar or pub after lessons and I'd be like, okay, I'm going on. I'd change in a bathroom.

Ariana (00:08:48) - Get your suit on, superhero suit.

Ghazaleh (00:08:52) - So it was balancing two very, very polar polar worlds. But I just had this hunger to kind of, to get moving. And I don't know, maybe that is a function of being a child of immigrant parents? Probably. Probably because there was always a very hard working sort of nature and lens instilled in me from a very young age. And also I think an element of always trying to be, you know, financially, emotionally independent as much as you can, and yes, collaborating with others, working with others, but also learning to stand on your own two feet. And it was fascinating. It was wonderful. And then I graduated. I went to work for another investment bank. But the thing is, with investment banks, what happens is that…and I was still once I graduated, was still unsure as to the precise direction. Through serendipity, I don't know.

Ghazaleh (00:09:48) - I fell into operations within the second investment bank I worked for. Once I graduated.

Ariana (00:09:53) - I feel like so many of us fall into operations, myself included, just to unpack that for people who might be like, did I…am I falling into it accidentally? Would like, how did you realize, Oh, this is this is the thing I'm going to do now? Like, was it a moment? Was it like, Oh, I want to take on these projects? Was it fixing problems? Like what? Where did that light bulb go off for you?

Ghazaleh (00:10:15) - When I was working for this investment bank and I liked what I did. I liked the project management, I loved how there was certain cadence at different times. And in a world, particularly within finance, where there's regulation that keeps changing depending on all the activity that's happening. It was that. But also when you work for an investment bank and you're in operations, these organizations are huge. The reality of you being able to successfully move into a different role, like, for example, closer to where the money is, for lack of a better word, whether you're on the front desk, trading support, sales, all these kind of elements, very different to the operations and sort of the nerve center.

Ghazaleh (00:11:01) - It's really hard unless you do land a kind of a graduate specific role, and I hadn't figured that out yet at that time. But I looked around and I think it was month eight and I was like, okay, I'm bored. I figured it out. They've offered me like a managerial position. That all looks wonderful, but it's just not for me. And I don't want my life to just plateau and be at this level. So, they're sort of known as what is typically the sell side and then the buy side. The flip side is kind of your hedge funds, etc. And I'd been speaking to people about, you know, what the hedge funds do. What does that actually mean? What are they like for work? What's the culture? Although culture wasn't as much of a thing as it is these days. And I thought, you know what, I need to move. I think one of my greatest fears is becoming too comfortable and not finding comfort in being uncomfortable, as weird as that sounds, because you just don't grow.

Ghazaleh (00:12:03) - And I always want to keep testing myself. Granted, I was of a certain age where I could take a lot of risks and just, you know, flex as needed. So I applied to this role, which was operations for a hedge fund. I remember it distinctly in November 2005, and I got it. And it was for one of the biggest hedge funds that managed loads of different strategies. I started off within sort of back office, moved up to middle office. And the thing is, because there's so much smaller you can you can talk to the traders very directly, you can talk to the founder. It's a very different environment, a very different setup. You really get to understand all these cogs that are turning…how they work. And also you assume a lot more responsibility as a consequence. And I think that's when long way of answering your very simple question, I think that's when it really came together. And I thought, yeah, I really, really enjoy this and I like I'm very fortunate to, to work for these people and I'm enjoying it and they're enjoying it and it's reciprocated and meritocratic.

Ghazaleh (00:13:09) - And this is what I want to do. It wasn't easy all the time, for lack of I was the only senior woman in the room at many points in my life in the room. And I think today's world is different. I think society is trying to address that. I mean, when I became sort of Head of Ops and then at that point in my life, I was head of investor relations for the fund as well. There were times where a meeting would be starting and one of the people came for the meeting just said, Yeah, I'll have a black coffee.

Ariana (00:13:44) - Oh, oh.

Ghazaleh (00:13:48) - Yeah. And, and you know, kind of dealing with that and dealing with, you know, not necessarily the people you're reporting to, but sometimes the people who are your relative peers, you know, why is this person here and what is exactly they bring? And a bit of a kind of a lad…kind of boys club mentality and trying to okay, I've got to do my work, but I've also got to deal with this.

Ghazaleh (00:14:14) - But the problem is, I loved what I did.

Ariana (00:14:17) - It is that mental load that goes unsaid where you've got to be fantastic at everything you do. You have to be on top of everything. You've got to know how to navigate those very uncomfortable, assumed social situations like “here's my coffee order” in a way that puts people within the place of like, That's not what I'm here for, but also does it in a way that you can still collaborate and doesn't isolate them. It's like this, it's this, it's this tap dance of and I will say I think post-MeToo, at least for me, there's less tiptoeing that I have to do. But in the early days, man, I was just like doing like, like I was just bending over backwards trying to not make the situation uncomfortable purely because it would make it harder for me, right? Like, that's the hard part is like, you could address this in a way that's super blunt and whatever, but ultimately that does come back.

Ariana (00:15:15) - And hurt you as a female within the industry. It's so hard to know that fine line. And you know, we connected on that when we talked before because it's very hard to describe. Like I'll never forget, I was presenting on technology and I was helping somebody code on a Raspberry Pi. And they said to me, “you know, you don't look like a developer”. And I'm like, “well, what does a developer look like?” A developer can look like anybody in anything of any age like, but there are these assumed roles of like, you can't be this thing. And again, I think things have changed a lot in the last couple of years, but that still lingers constantly in everything.

Ghazaleh (00:15:54) - Absolutely. It is unfortunately an undercurrent that will always continue. And I'll never forget something that one of these ladies that I knew from an investment bank and she was a salesperson, unfortunately, she left this life too soon. But remember, she would always say that “a sense of misogyny and toxic behavior, unfortunately, will always exist.”

Ghazaleh (00:16:21) - It's how to balance the construct, how to have frameworks, you know, sort of people…not just necessarily women. You know, a lot of men don't perpetuate this behavior. And I think it's really important to say that because.

Ariana (00:16:35) - 100%

Ghazaleh (00:16:36) - It's fascinating that when I look back, a lot of my backers were actually the quote unquote, dreaded white, middle aged men. But they were smart, you know, clever, switched on businessmen who were just like, this person is good at this. This person is good. And how do we build a business in the right way? As opposed to unconscious biases or a man or a woman or a person of color? You know, none of that. It was super simple. Who can do the job? What are the competencies? They were kind of my backers. Whereas it was fascinating. Some of the people who weren't so happy or would sort of, you know, it's all their own narcissism and their own ego playing up.

Ghazaleh (00:17:21) - They were either my age, so we were on the same level.

Ariana (00:17:24) - Yeah, it's sometimes like as a woman too. I feel like the biggest tension I feel is with other women. It's so bizarre because we both are trying to essentially like there's space for both of us. But I do think that there sometimes is that tension that lives there. Same with your peers. Like there's that tension where essentially you're kind of like looking at each other sort of as competition, but like you're not. There space for both of us. So it's, it's this weird thing that is so funny. Whereas when there's certain people that you're working with, let's say, you know, just from an age range or an experience range, they've got plenty of years on you. You're not competition, you know, like they're mentoring you, they're helping you, they're helping to see where you could go. It's a different dynamic. That's a very, very good point. I mean, obviously, part of it is just being conscious and like breaking that down from the get-go.

Ariana (00:18:15) - But yeah, I have found that myself too.

Ghazaleh (00:18:16) - I always reminded myself and there were some really tough times, particularly when I'd just been promoted. So sort of Head of Ops and then sort of CEO because it was a hybrid. We didn't really have one but I assume that quite a lot of that responsibility. And then we were going to lead a massive project of sort of spinning out and spinning away and setting up our own structure and would I come along for that ride? So not only do you have the intensity of the project and managing resizing and retrenching and just new systems, new people, the whole shebang, but also having that in the dark recesses of your mind, so to speak. But I always would remind myself that if I was to walk out that door. That would be one less female.

Ariana (00:19:07) - Yes.

Ghazaleh (00:19:08) - And at the end of the day, I think it makes you rethink. And look, it's not for everyone. And I'm not saying that that's the decision everyone should make because everyone has a different judgment call based on what they're doing, what they can…their mental health, etcetera.

Ghazaleh (00:19:24) - But to me, I just felt like I've worked too hard and I've come too far to let people who…do I respect them? Do I really, you know, value that kind of thought and that way of conducting yourself in a professional environment? No. So I do have backers. I need to listen to those and other people who quite frankly, are running the business. The rest I kind of don't really care about and I'll figure it out. And that's the choice I had to make. And probably as a consequence of those choices, other doors opened. I was super fortunate to have that. You know, I was in the middle of the storm when Madoff happened and Lehman happened. And that was a wonderful, wonderful learning curve for me because all of a sudden there was this huge focus on our industry, on protecting institutional investors, making sure checks and balances were firmly in place and separation of responsibility and managing that. And to be clear, I'd never had any of this experience before, which I always find almost comical when people say, Oh, but you've never had that experience, so why should I take you on for this role? And it's, I think, the smart, clever organization.

Ariana (00:20:42) - Right? That's operations, though. Like, you know, at least half of what I deal with on a daily basis. It's the first time I'm dealing with it. And like, that's operations because it just you get thrown everything and there's no possible way you can predict what gets thrown at you. That's hilarious. It's like people who are like, I want a social media expert who's been doing it for 30 years. You're like, That doesn't exist. That doesn't exist.

Ghazaleh (00:21:09) - Exactly. And, you know, looking on paper and looking at what this person has done, I think a relatively intelligent person would just say, okay, well, they've exercised that muscle. They'll get it. What's the worst that can happen? You know, I think sometimes there is focus on the wrong things and maybe without bad intentions, some organizations just frankly don't know what they're looking for or there's some other kind of PR movement that you're not aware of that they're trying to work on that isn't really a good fit.

Ghazaleh (00:21:38) - But yeah, I think coming back to that, I just recognize that well, actually, I really like what I do and I'm good at what I do. Why should I have to walk away? That's not right. That's not what should happen. I just want to continue and learn and grow and so that's kind of like the biggest chapters of how I got into it. And, you know, within funds, I stayed with a certain company for about 11 to 12 years and kind of saw the life cycle and really, really enjoyed it.

Ariana (00:22:11) - Which is rare, I would say these days, like to see that life cycle. I mean, you know, for myself, the longest I've stayed anywhere is four and a half years. So the evolution of what I see is so different. What was that like growing within a business for that time? And then I guess deciding that you were ready to move on to that next chapter? What did that kind of feel like?

Ghazaleh (00:22:34) - That's a really good question.

Ghazaleh (00:22:36) - I think it's fascinating because we're human beings, so you get used to a certain way of, I don't know, it's kind of like the furniture, for lack of a better word, not offending people, but, you know, it's like your family. You're like, yep, this person and this person and this is what's going to happen today. It becomes the way, if you will, and it's standard. And then there are these twists and turns within the business and it's “Okay. Oh, no, we're changing systems or we're employing more people” or sometimes there are difficult conversations that you have to have. How do you manage that? And as bizarre as the universe is, of course it all comes at once. It never comes in manageable chunks.

Ariana (00:23:23) - The universe is like, Oh, you got a plan. That's hilarious. That's cute.

Ghazaleh (00:23:29) - It's fascinating. Although I think at the time you don't think it's fascinating. You're like, Why is this happening to me? And the world is coming to an end, but it really tests your strength. It tests your resolve. It is effectively problem solving. And also it's the combination of the hard skills to a certain degree and all that experience you brought up, but also the soft skills, you know, dealing with people, dealing with issues. It's life. It happens. You know, people's personal lives get affected. Your own personal life gets affected by life. That's how it happens. How do you move on as a collective and bring everyone along for the journey in the best way possible so that the business can benefit as well, so that everyone is moving along in a nice way. And I also think it’s about recognizing that the business is super important, but the business is separate to you. It's a separate entity.

Ariana (00:24:27) - Oh, that's a lesson. I remember learning that lesson myself. I was leaving a business and I was like, Man, I wonder what they're going to do without me. What am I going to do without them, you know? And they got on fine and I got on fine.

Ariana (00:24:43) - And I probably had a harder time because I had attached my identity to that place. Right. And I had to kind of rethink, you know, who am I? And that's when I realized, you know, it's not what you do is who you are. Just kind of getting back to that message that you had when you were younger. I know who I want to be. We get lost in the like, the accolades, the names like, you know, the titles. None of that ultimately matters. But sometimes you need a wake up call or a reminder to say, “See? remember this thing that you knew and you're going to remember it again now”. Definitely.

Ghazaleh (00:25:17) - And I think when we were sort of getting towards the end and ultimately we decided to close the fund, but prior to that, I had been getting quite bored and I thought, this is wonderful, but I want to do something different now. And I think you make a very good point about, okay, this is what I do, but this is who I am and I'm making sure you keep reminding yourself of that because I wasn't too happy with who I was at that point.

Ghazaleh (00:25:46) - I just felt like my world was very small. And when you go to a dinner party, when you're going, you're meeting people. And I think it's a pretty good indicator when the first question is people go, “Oh, so what do you do?” I never, never want to…I hate that.

Ariana (00:26:00) - I know I'm always like, I never know the question to ask. Then I'm like, “how's the weather?” But like, there is that and that you sort of it's like, I guess like a human way of sort of putting that person within a box quickly to understand and to be able to communicate. But there's so many other ways of understanding somebody's experience and, you know, I probably should come up with a weird question to ask people to start, you know, shake it up a little bit.

Ghazaleh (00:26:27) - Yeah, yeah. Let's figure out how much this person earns and, you know, kind of all these things. But rather, “oh, how do you know this person?” I think that's my kind of entry point. But I thought to myself, okay, I want to shake things up. And like I said earlier, I really like learning, but I don't like studying so much. So what do I do? And I'd been thinking, I've been toying with the idea of a couple of years before that about, okay, if I want to go back to study, what am I going to go and study? Because I want to keep investing in my career? How do I build that up? What is important? Because the reality is we're probably going to be working for a good, you know, several decades to come. So how do we keep investing in that? And of course, you can't you can't cover for every type of event to come because, you know, if everyone had a crystal ball, your life would be in a way much simpler, but a hell of a lot more boring. So I looked into MBAs, but then at the time I had thought, I'm working full time and this isn't how do I do this? I'm not quite sure, but I hadn't really gone deeper into the concept of studying part time for my MBA.

Ghazaleh (00:27:44) - But also then which school would I go to? You know, would it be locally? Would it be in the UK? Would it be in the US? Europe? Where would it be? And slowly, as I was going through this process, there were some schools that were based close to London, but they had a lot of, you know, sort of finance people, quote unquote. And I thought, okay, but then I'll be surrounded by similar sort of people that I was around and maybe if I could find a halfway, that'd be great. So I looked into Cambridge Judge also because of the institution that it is the history that it brings. It's so much more than just a business school. And I thought, okay, let me let me give this a go. And my own personal thought, as much as I found studying a little bit hard when I was younger, I must say that I believe that fundamentally education is a huge privilege. It's really important to be conscious of that, because even…forget about sort of abroad or sort of even if you're affected by socio economic reasons.

Ghazaleh (00:28:54) - But even, you know, here in the UK, there are a lot of people who don't have basic education. It's something that's not spoken about in the same way that, for example, here cost of living and global inflation is affecting a lot of people. You know, I'm very, very lucky to have had this experience.Going back to kind of the relationships that you build up. You know, my organization, because I was still working there at the time. The idea was I was going to work full time, study part time at Judge. They fully funded my degree and they were super supportive of that. But I must say, if I don't pat myself on the back myself, I, I, I'd given them a lot myself as well. So we were fair after that. I'm kidding. But it is a huge, a huge privilege. And I went off on this journey and my world just exploded. It was fascinating.

Ghazaleh (00:29:52) - And some people don't get MBAs and think there's a bit of a negative connotation related with them.

Ariana (00:29:59) - Yeah. What do you think that is?

Ghazaleh (00:30:01) - I don't know. Maybe it's some people. I don't think it's a bad intention. I just don't think they've ever been able to go through a portion of that experience or just one of those things. I don't know. It's like looking at the Mona Lisa from afar, but then being in the Louvre and then appreciating the Mona Lisa, I'm using a very simple kind of metaphor. There are two very different things and some things you have to…it has to be tangible. You have to feel it to be able to really, you know, pass judgment. But maybe some people are just generally quick to pass judgment. I don't know.

Ariana (00:30:36) - I think there's this like mentality to that. What you learn in an MBA, you can learn on the job. Just for context, I haven't gotten any advanced degrees besides my bachelor's, but like I've learned a ton on the job.

Ariana (00:30:51) - The things that I find that I miss in my knowledge are the frameworks, the historical case studies to learn from how to apply that. That's the stuff that I have to go back and, and almost give myself this like real life MBA because I have to learn those things. But I don't learn that on the job. Right? Because you're the thing that the job allows is actioning, learning through doing. But it doesn't always give you that time to learn. And I don't know that like philosophical space to really think through things. That's the space that I've had to learn to create for myself. But man, it would be awesome to have an environment to do that in and to be held accountable for that kind of thinking. I mean, that's me looking from the outside in. That's how I kind of see it. But I'm not sure if I'm hitting what an MBA kind of feels like. But that's what I sort of assume I'm missing.

Ghazaleh (00:31:43) - Absolutely. You've hit it completely on the head.

Ghazaleh (00:31:46) - It can be a very emotional experience. I'm hugely, hugely thankful for it. And the people I met along the way as well. I mean, I was so impressed with the caliber of people, I mean for full transparency. You know, I was in a place where I didn't have any dependents. Life was relatively easy. You know, people who have kids and people who are going through massive change in their personal lives, just rolling up, you know, every single weekend. And it's really incredible. And I think there's this sort of effervescence that's bubbling away in the background and that gave me energy. You're all problem-solving together. You're thrown into this…let's say interesting. A lot of interesting group works that you have to do with people who you don't really know and work. And they come from very different industries. You'll have someone from I don’t know, a farmer with someone from tech, with someone from the military, and they someone comes from, I don't know, someone's from Africa, someone's from the Middle East, someone's from Europe.

Ghazaleh (00:32:56) - So everyone's got their own biases and their own lenses and and the juice is really how does everyone apply their learnings, their problem solving, And you come up with a finite piece at the end as a group. And it's just really, really interesting. I mean, I'm an absolute sucker for people's stories and their personal journeys. And I think to your point, learning is lifelong, 100%. It just never, ever ends. I think the point is if I was starting to think that my learning had finished, I think it's game over.

Ariana (00:33:33) - 100%, I could not agree more. If you feel like you are done learning, that's it. And I've seen people that have sort of thrown in the towel and I'm like, Ooh, you're going to be in trouble with all this technology that's advancing. Like, you can't stop, honestly, it makes me proud because my parents are in their 70s and they're, you know, learning their iPads and they're like figuring out how to do all these things.

Ariana (00:33:56) - And, you know, even basic things like connecting the printer and working on Bluetooth and like those little things and continuous learning no matter what age. That's just a requirement. I think also to enjoy life even more. So if you just stop there, you're missing so much.

Ghazaleh (00:34:13) - Absolutely. Absolutely. It's a fantastic experience. If anyone has the opportunity to do it and is measuring up, I think they should go for it because it is just such a phenomenal time. And like I said, it's not always easy, but easy doesn't make you think and it doesn't make you grow.

Ariana (00:34:33) - And you know, a lot of these courses that think that if you have a financial barrier or a time barrier, a lot of the things that you can learn are also like they're now being shared for free on YouTube. So if you're interested in getting those frameworks or that kind of learning. There's access to that now that there just wasn't, you know, even a decade ago.

Ariana (00:34:55) - So there ultimately is no excuse. It's just about carving out time, although everybody's got different barriers to that, right? It's just figuring out what fits in your life and what you're curious about learning. Man, there's so many questions I have. I think if we look at your career trajectory, like from a title standpoint, you've been managing director, head of operations, COO, basic titles. You've actually been many more things than that. In all of those roles, if someone were to ask you what is the common factor or what is the common glue between those, what would you say?

Ghazaleh (00:35:38) - That's a really good question. I think it is about diligence. I think that is the overarching theme. If we're talking about culture, a buzzword that keeps coming up, probably like a culture of curiosity and to always sort of be excelling to to be remarkable, always trying to push the boundaries whilst paying here to being diligent and ensuring that there is governance. I think from a kind of leadership standpoint with individuals, particularly people sort of from a younger generation who are just starting out managing their expectations.

Ghazaleh (00:36:19) - I think it's about leadership with empathy and understanding and support and support doesn't mean, you know, putting someone in I don't know what you call it in America. I don't think you call it Clingfilm. I think you call it.

Ariana (00:36:34) - Yeah. Bubble wrap.

Ghazaleh (00:36:35) - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ariana (00:36:36) - Yeah, yeah. Yes!

Ghazaleh (00:36:39) - That doesn't necessarily mean support. It means, you know, trying to prompt people to trying to think about the questions they should ask because let's be frank about it, if you know, particularly with my world, with financial services, not everyone is fortunate to come from a family where I'd know the markets were a topic of conversation at the table. You know, these things are ubiquitous. So I think you've always got to try and think from other people's lenses as much as you can and kind of where they come from. And I must give a shout out because this is hugely important to me. I'm super passionate about leveling the playing field and one of the organizations that I've had the opportunity to work with is a company based here called Gain, which is Gaza Investors.

Ghazaleh (00:37:30) - It is basically a nonprofit that was primarily set up by investment professionals, and it's all about the endeavor to improve gender diversity within asset management by basically trying to help build the talent pipeline. And what I like about it is several things. Number one, they start off at a very early age. So they're going into schools from, you know, talking to kids who are, like I say, kids, I should say teenagers like 15, 16, and also through to universities. But the second piece that I think is really important is they are not just going to private schools. They are not just going to the quote unquote, high end schools. They are going to state schools, to comprehensive schools. They are dedicated to the reality of trying to level the playing field. And the lady, the founder who set it up, a lady called Tilly Franklin, who is a remarkable force, formidable woman, CEO, CIO of Cambridge University Endowment Fund, and Tanya Tracey, who is the CEO there.

Ghazaleh (00:38:40) - They have a very impressive list of trustees. They're a phenomenal organization. The point I'm trying to get to is, for example, now there are organizations like this where, you know, if women or girls are interested in careers like this, they can start to look at these channels. Because what I'm hesitant about…a bit like me and I'm just talking from personal experience, I had no clue where I wanted to get involved with in the investment world or financial services. It's so broad. It's just good to get out there to be in a trusted community, to be able to ask questions that you think sound dumb that aren't because you need to ask those questions.

Ariana (00:39:22) - And everybody's thinking, those questions that you're asking. Everybody is. That's what I've learned. Everyone and no one's speaking up and you're that person constantly raising your hand. You have to always do that 100%.

Ghazaleh (00:39:36) - Absolutely. You know, I would have loved it if organizations like this existed when I was starting out because you just have no idea what is happening.

Ghazaleh (00:39:46) - And it's. It's so yeah. Hats off to them and to many of their other people who are doing this work. I think it's hugely important. You know, it takes a village.

Ariana (00:39:57) - Do you think that to be an operator requires you to be a problem solver? Do you think it's one and the same?

Ghazaleh (00:40:09) - I think there are huge elements of it. I think there is an element of you do need to be a people person. If there is an element of sort of managing people and, you know, making key decisions within groups and teams, I do think that is hugely important because you've got to be aware of how to interact with other people and how you raise one another, how you bring everyone along for the journey. But yes, I do think a large part of it is fundamentally problem-solving, but also realizing that you're not always going to be able to figure it out and you're not always going to be able to have a solution. And being humble and accepting that that is huge because I think a lot of people, not through their own fault, but I think they just get carried away with it.

Ghazaleh (00:41:06) - I've been carried away with it before, but sometimes you just gotta say, you know what, It's just not going to happen.

Ariana (00:41:12) - You know, they say like, fake it before you make it. And I feel like operations is a lot of that. And because you're like, I think based on my previous experience, we can figure this out. You know, I can't promise it, but I think I can. And then that moment when you have to realize, like, this actually doesn't work. Like we don't have the technology, we don't have the process set up, we've got to do all these other things. To be able to honestly say this doesn't work or I don't know or it doesn't make sense right now, Oh, that's so hard. But it's also hard to say in a way where it doesn't completely dismantle the motivation of the team, which I think is like, you know, you said you got to bring everybody along. And I find that I sometimes feel like a mother duckling or a mother where I'm like bringing all my ducklings along where it's like even if, let's say we hit a dead end on something, you have to figure out.

Ariana (00:42:05) - You can't just be like, okay, and here's the dead end. You have to say, okay, here's the dead end. Here's what we learned. Here's what we know next time, here's what we're going to try next. Right. And there's that evolution of learning that allows you to see the glass half full. At least from my experience, no matter the situation, I sometimes have approached it. There was a time in my career where I felt a bit like Eeyore from Winnie the Pooh. Like there was always a bit of a cloud over my head and, you know, like I was sort of like “meh” like just a bit grumpy and a bit like I was just unhappy looking back with where I was and I didn't look at the glass half full in things, right? I always sort of looked at it as a blocker. And realizing to work around the blocker. It's just a speed bump really. It's not a blocker, right? Like that was a big moment and it took realizing and getting out of that unhappy place to start to understand how important it is as a leader in operations to let that go.

Ariana (00:43:04) - It doesn't help you. It doesn't help anybody. You have to move forward and keep that optimism.

Ghazaleh (00:43:10) - Yeah, Managing expectations is hugely important, managing expectations and value systems. And if you can make that abundantly clear, both sides for everyone and establish that trust, that is hugely important because no one wants to hear at the very last second, “oops, this isn't going to happen.” It's okay, you know.

Ariana (00:43:36) - Manage that accordingly and then we can figure out plan B or plan C or plan whatever, whatever is necessary. We’ll go to Z if we need to.

Ghazaleh (00:43:42) - We are way, way down there right now.

Ariana (00:43:45) - Yeah.

Ghazaleh (00:43:46) - Absolutely. I think that is very important components within the journey.

Ariana (00:43:53) - I guess the last sort of piece of your brain that I want to take is having worked in so many different facets in the financial world, in operations within that world for operators outside of the financial realm, what is something that we can bring into our work that you have learned very specifically within that industry? Like what's something that we should keep our eyes peeled for or a skill that maybe we should learn?

Ghazaleh (00:44:19) - I think as more time goes by and maybe this is annoying because it's not a specific set, but I think it is the soft skills.

Ghazaleh (00:44:30) - I think it is really about just being humble about where you're at, what you know, what you don't know. Running a business is hard, right? It is. Otherwise everyone would do it. It doesn't matter if you're tech or finance or whatever it is. Otherwise it would be so ubiquitous and we'd all be millionaires, billionaires and etcetera. But that's not reality. It's a long, hard journey and I think it's about being patient with yourself, with others and going along for that journey. It makes me chuckle a little bit when people talk about startups, but then you look at businesses that have been going for hundreds of years and they just still through the churn. Well, they were startups as well. Startups aren't a new thing. Every business now was a business before, it was a little embryo, it was a startup. That's how it is. So I think it's really about thinking about what a business is, what the fundamentals of it are, what is needed. And I think that trust factor and knowing that you're not going to have all the answers all the time, but trying to work with really kind of switched on people who are hungry, who are happy to push boundaries within certain frameworks, you know, you don't want people knocking down doors.

Ghazaleh (00:45:57) - But, but, people who have that value set, who understand what managing expectations means and you're all aligned on that because it's brilliant to have different schools of thought. I think you don't want to all be thinking in the same way because the creativity won't happen, that flare won't happen. And so it will be really, you know, you'll be working in Sepia as opposed to Technicolor.

Ariana (00:46:24) - I got to tell you, I was not expecting that answer. I was expecting. Well, I think regulations or I think like with the financial industry…like that's what I was kind of expecting. But it makes me laugh because in every conversation that we've had on Secret Ops, the common component is people. Operations should serve people. It's about people. It's about communication. It's about how we make this work for the people that we help. If those are customers, if those are stakeholders or if those are our peers, it always comes back to that. And I feel like when people who aren't in operations think of operations, they kind of think about these process nerds and standard operating procedure.

Ariana (00:47:13) - Like, that's what they think that we do. That's like the symptom of the effect of what we're actually trying to solve, which is clear communications, alignment, moving the team forward in a way, getting people to feel confident. It's so much more human, psychological-based and the process and the people in the tech, that's all of a part of it. That's so funny. I really didn't expect you to go there and I'm so glad you did. It literally just showed my own bias.

Ghazaleh (00:47:43) - Absolutely. I mean, yes, to your point, there are frameworks you have to work in. You have to make sure that's important. But I think what gives you the edge, what gives you going over the line again and again and again is that we're spending, gosh, over 90% of our time with other people, with other counterparties, with, you know, all these different elements. But at the end of the day, if you don't have all these things set up properly, if you can't have honest, thoughtful, challenging conversations with one another, none of it means anything.

Ariana (00:48:18) - It's so true. Thank you so much for sharing your brain. This was a very different kind of episode and I'm so glad it was because we really got to touch on the more holistic side of operations and how we get there and what it feels like as a woman and just as a leader as you progress your skills. And I just really appreciate your brain and being open with sharing with us.

Ghazaleh (00:48:41) - Delighted. Thank you for having me.

Ariana (00:48:43) - Before we go, we got to know a little bit more about you as a human being. So we're going to wrap up with some rapid fire questions cause I'm going to spit them out. You give me your gut response to them. So first one is what is your favorite part of your day?

Ghazaleh (00:48:57) - Oh, that is a great question.

Ghazaleh (00:49:02) - I think maybe it's the mood that I'm in at the moment. At this point of time, I don't know. I honestly think that the state of the world is in such chaos.

Ghazaleh (00:49:17) - I think whether it's abroad, whether it's nationally, there are huge problems. You know, that various societies are dealing with. To me, it's, you know, if I can just be minded that, you know, my friends and family are doing well, I'm okay. My health is okay because I'm a very passionate believer and you cannot outsource your health at all. It does not happen. You have to look out for yourself if I am doing okay. It doesn’t matter what time of the day without sounding bizarre about that, but yeah.

Ariana (00:49:51) - No love that. What book or audio book are you currently reading or listening to?

Ghazaleh (00:49:58) - Oh, um, I'm reading two, actually. Fiction and non-fiction. I always have, or tend to have. I don't know why I don't do it on purpose, but. But I just tend to have like two for, I don't know, different times of the day or if I'm doing a commute or, I don't know, sitting, waiting for a dentist appointment.

Ghazaleh (00:50:19) - I don't know. Fiction is Yellowface by Rebecca Kwong, who is a fascinating writer. She's written several books. It's the first of her books that I'm reading. Just takes you along for the ride. You get lost in her words. It's brilliant. Non-fiction is a book called The Body Keeps the Score. A completely different kind of topic. It is by Bessel Van Der Kolk, if I'm pronouncing his name properly, he is a psychiatrist. Author, researcher basically talks about trauma and how it impacts, body, mind, etcetera, etcetera. I think thankfully now society is waking up to how certain events and not to take away anything from people who are in the armed forces. But, you know, it's not necessarily just kind of that activity, but a lot of other events that unfortunately are very commonplace in people's lives because that's just life, how that can affect your physicality and your brain. And it's fascinating. Highly recommend it.

Ariana (00:51:29) - Both sound awesome. What is the best purchase you've made under $50?

Ghazaleh (00:51:35) - I don't really buy that many things.

Ghazaleh (00:51:38) - I'm not really. If I do buy things, I'm probably like buying a book. So can I take the easy way out and mention those two books again?

Ariana (00:51:48) - Yeah, of course. Books on books on books! What is your favorite quote that is stuck with you?

Ghazaleh (00:51:57) - Rumi, who is a 13th century Persian poet, I'm massively paraphrasing here and I'm changing it into a different language i.e English. So hopefully I get this correct, but it's along the lines of “beauty surrounds us but we usually need to be walking in a garden to know it.”

Ariana (00:52:18) - Hmm, whoa. That took me into a whole other realm. I'm going to be doing some googling after this. What is something that makes you little-kid happy? Like, you know, younger you, like five year old you. What is something today that makes you feel that way?

Ghazaleh (00:52:39) - I'm going to have to do multiple choice on this. It's going to have to be a number of things, if that's okay.

Ghazaleh (00:52:45) - Good food, good music, anything health related. I think anything that gets you moving is good for you, whether you're into running or swimming or just going for a walk or dancing. Like I said, I love music. I think I'd be dead without music. Great food. I'm a massive foodie.

Ariana (00:53:03) - Love it. I'm going to have to get some recommendations. What's the most important lesson you've learned in your life so far? I honestly feel like this whole episode kind of answered that question. But is there a takeaway or like a one lesson that you would say has risen above the rest?

Ghazaleh (00:53:21) - Trust the Process.

Ariana (00:53:23) - That's a good one. Last question, which is, what do you want to be when you grow up? Hmm.

Ghazaleh (00:53:29) - Maybe I'm influenced by Wimbledon, but a professional tennis player would probably be a good shout.

Ariana (00:53:34) - Yes, that would be amazing. Oh, my God. That's the best. I just want to thank you so much for sharing your brain.

Ariana (00:53:44) - I feel like we could have a whole other conversation and go so much more low-level. But I know that this is honestly something that you and I are both passionate about, so I really appreciate that. If people are hearing what you're saying, it's echoing with them. Where can they find you?

Ghazaleh (00:53:59) - They can find me on the wonderful world of LinkedIn.

Ariana (00:54:06) - We'll make sure to link that in the description too. Again, thank you for your time and your brain. Thank you so much to the Secret Ops listeners for listening to this episode. Please make sure to follow us wherever you find your podcasts and check us out at secret-ops.com. We'll see you next time.