Joe (00:00:03) - I think operators would just like to take on things we never did before. It's like, Hey, please do this. And you say, Well, I don't know how to do that, but I'm going to figure it out real fast. You like it, you love it, you learn it, and then you massage it till you get better at it.

Ariana (00:00:17) - Welcome to Secret Ops, the podcast uncovering the world of operations one episode at a time. I'm your host, Ariana Cofone, and on today's episode, we have Joe Aurilia, an operations executive for over 20 years who's dedicated to technical and operational leadership. Now, Joe is one of those people who has worked in so many different focuses of operations from technology to revenue ops to people ops, security and much more. This conversation really ended up being about what is the common thread through all of those things and what are some ways that you can take all of those lessons and operators learned over 20 years of his experience into your own life? Let's check it out.

Ariana (00:01:06) - Joe, thanks so much for coming on Secret Ops. It was exciting to see your background because you've been in so many different aspects of operations that there's a lot that we're going to dive into today. But I want to thank you so much for agreeing to come on and talk to us.

Joe (00:01:21) - I really appreciate it. And thank you very much for having me here today.

Ariana (00:01:24) - Yeah, of course. As we start with everybody, we want to know your journey into operations, because as we're learning…everybody's journey is very different. There's no pattern. So what is your journey into operations and how did you get into the work that you're doing today?

Joe (00:01:41) - Yes, for sure. I mean, certainly it was sort of a story journey from start to beginning mildly. Anyone really starts out of their education thinking, hey, I'm going to do operations. I'm going to try to own the kitchen sink, you know, of a company. So it began life as a computer scientist. So, hard core technology, really loved to build those worlds in your head and then see them come to life in terms of an application and serving others.

Joe (00:02:01) - And I did that for AT&T for a long time, really responsible for a very large end systems moving into the enterprise architecture aspects of getting more of that leadership, more of that global experience. But then had the opportunity to get an MBA as part of the position I was in. And that really opened your eyes more into the leading, the scaling, the global nature of the finances. And it was very enjoyable to see how you were able to to marry that technology world with the operational world. Moving past those experiences, I had the opportunity to start another company of mine, I had a few over time. I had a consulting company for about 20 years, small and medium sized businesses. Did the iPhone company back then, when it was cool because it feels like a long time ago and it was the “in” thing to have. So I was on that bandwagon for a while, still a hardcore Apple fan. But created a, you know, worked with the renewable energy company and built it out to a few different states.

Joe (00:02:54) - And when we did that, we really tried to focus on how do you minimize headcount? You know, we didn't have a ton of funding. And operationally speaking, you start to look at all the aspects of a business. How do you build this out of the box? How do you make it, you know, sink and swim? And that kind of got your mind into that, “hey, we can create businesses. We can kind of figure out all the pieces that go together. We can kind of make them marry and talk.” And I took that experience into where I am today, which was a startup. They were around since 2016. They had a decent number of folks over in our India operation building the actual product. And they asked if you can come in and help build out all the teams from scratch on the U.S side. So really receiving a blank slate and being told, can you build the departments, can you work with people, can you scale, can you hire, can you operationalize all the technology? And I said, yes.

Joe (00:03:42) - And here we are today. You know, Operations owns many different functions of a company. All of us are different. All of us have different parts of our ownership. But we're responsible for the nuts and bolts of how things sort of move along.

Ariana (00:03:56) - I find it fascinating because there is a trend I'm seeing with operators where they come from a specialization, for your journey it's computer science. And then there's this entrepreneurial spirit that they have. And so they end up being really curious and trying different things. And it seemed like going to have that MBA really unlocked a whole new world for you in helping to transition to that. Did you find like in having an MBA, what did you find I guess was the piece that unlocked it? Was it just seeing different things and being around different people that had different knowledge that expanded what you thought you could do?

Joe (00:04:36) - You know, I think the program was actually only for individuals who had been working for a certain number of years. So your conversations were all kind of coming from the field.

Joe (00:04:43) - And to me, the most important thing that this particular school had kind of gotten was that we want to get you to a point where you can speak about anything. You could walk on stage, be handed a presentation, have never seen it before, and the audience believes that you were a master in that subject. So it was really focusing on how well can you comprehend information, How well can you deliver a story? How well can you not know all the details about it, but lead and guide and build trust? And I think that was sort of the key, is that how can you convey information and how can you communicate it effectively?

Ariana (00:05:13) - It's interesting because when we look into your career, you really had some crazy roles and led some really diverse types of teams? So you're currently senior vice president of operations, You've been a managing director, a chief information officer, a senior IT specialist. You've led teams and technical ops, contract ops, revenue ops people, ops, security ops.

Ariana (00:05:32) - So like that is a lot of different knowledge to have and a lot of different roles to take. I mean, could you have ever predicted that that would have been your journey?

Joe (00:05:45) - Never. Never in a million years my journey would have been developing massively complex applications for a long time to have all those different pieces. I mean, I think anyone wakes up and said, I'd like to read a few hundred contracts this year or I'd like to interview a few hundred people. Never, never in a million years. But I think operators would just like to take on things we never did before. It's like, Hey, please do this. And you say, “well, I don't know how to do that, but I'm going to figure it out real fast.” And you just…you like it, you love it, you learn it, and then you massage it till you get better at it.

Ariana (00:06:13) - I love it. You like it, You love it and you learn it.

Joe (00:06:16) - The future there.

Ariana (00:06:17) - Yeah, absolutely. So the best way I've been able to describe operations and we've talked about this, “people, process, tech, fused by data”. Obviously you've had experience, deep experience and all of those different things. So we need to pick your brain. I need to take some things away today. So guess let's, let's start with technology since that's the foundation of your operational brain from a technology standpoint. And maybe for people who are non-technical in operations, what are some things that you've learned or mentalities of how you approach technology that are good tips for other operators?

Joe (00:06:55) - It does come a little bit in terms of where you are in your journey from a company; the size, your people, your expectations, your how much money you are able to spend. But technology decisions can really sink a company or it can propel you forward. So it's really important to get it right. So when you pick that cheaper product because it fits your budget, you know, what is a real opportunity cost that you are going to experience by not getting to that next level.

Joe (00:07:17) - So if you buy an HR system that only works in the US, if you're based in the US, and then tomorrow you decide to work in Canada or Australia or whatever that is, you can't do it, your system doesn't support it. So you basically have a hard core stop right there. So I think it's important to look at the technology, but marry that to where is your business going? Where do you think it's going to go? How can you get there? How can the technology support that vision? And then using the technology to your advantage not to be a handicap. So really digging in, not just buying something because it's the best online or has the most reviews, it's really understanding if it maps well to your use cases and propel your business to the goals that your business currently has.

Ariana (00:07:56) - Yeah, man, that's a really good point. And I feel like I've been in so many conversations around technology and budget and in price really it does just scare people. I think, you know, you can know a tool is fantastic. They price it at a certain price point that in some ways mentally you're just saying we can't access that. Like that's not in budget, but trying to evaluate what it can do. Sometimes I feel like that's hard in operations to quantify what a tool can actually do for you. It's very hard to quantify people's time, productivity, and scalability. Have you found a way of assessing that when you're looking at technical solutions?

Joe (00:08:33) - I think it comes down to the people. You know, people are the ones making the final decision, right? AI isn't determining what your budget is for the year, at least not yet, thankfully. So you have to be able to communicate the value delivered and have that trust. So if that decision maker is above you and they're picking that budget, can you deliver enough information to convince them that the case is that you're better off with this particular technology than another because of what you know is going to come down the road? So as operators, I feel we are sort of risk preventers and risk notifiers, we know what's going to happen in the future. We're kind of predicting it. If we can tell that story clearly enough, with enough factual evidence to believe and make others understand that journey that you're headed to, you can perhaps align yourself for a better success.

Ariana (00:09:16) - That makes sense, and that transitions beautifully into talking about people, because operations, technology, it's only as good as the people that you're serving, right? And how you're working with that team. I mean, I can't say the amount of times that I've got on these chats and the hardest thing in operations that people don't understand is stakeholder communication and how a lot of our job is just getting people to understand and communicating the need for different things. So in your roles, what are some tips that you've learned in how to communicate the importance of operational initiatives? Like what are some tips that you've learned? Because I'm always trying to figure out new, better ways to get people to understand what we do.

Joe (00:10:00) - Yeah, I love that you walk into the people part because out of the technology, the people is the hardest part to solve.

Joe (00:10:05) - The technology can do whatever you want. It's pretty much scripted there, but you still have to work with people. You have to understand everyone's coming from if you're working with a sales team, what drives them? What makes them get successful and get rewarded is your plan, your operational strategy aligning with that? Can you modify your language to get on that same level of conversation so they understand how your changes help them. When you're talking to the finance or leadership or the board, you're doing the same thing. You decide operationally this is where you want to go, but you have to alter that language to each stakeholder to a way that they will, you know, understand, come on board and have a conversation. You don't want to talk below someone's technical ability. You don't want to talk above, but you want to meet everyone where it is. So we're sort of changing how we communicate for every single person. We're sort of cookie cutter and customizing that conversation and that enables those people to to trust you to buy in, to have a conversation. If you go with the blanket, here's my process. I'm going to mass mail it out. Stakeholders, please read it. One is probably not going to be read. Two it may not really fully meet the needs, so if it's that important, make it personal. Have that 15 minute chat with each person. Bring them on board, explain to them what you're doing. Do it earlier than later. So don't tell them when there's no point when this point of no return. You can't go backwards. Let them know: “hey look, in the next three months, I'm going to be doing this. These are the benefits. I just want you to know.” Give them time for their mind to kind of mesh around that information and bring up points that maybe you didn't think of because we can't think of everything. So make them part of the journey, make them part of the story, but keep that communication customized to how you will be able to relate together.

Ariana (00:11:40) - That's a good point. And the main thing I think is the difficulty in learning how to do that, right? Like there are so many nuances to figure out how do I go from not knowing how to communicate with people to like getting to that point? So how I guess, how did you learn it? I mean, I'm thinking in my own life, I think I just fell on my face a lot. If I'm being honest. I feel like I just messed up a lot and then figured out what worked and what didn't work. But did you find any hacks or kind of pro tips along the way and learning those communication skills, especially in how to translate that in different teams, stakeholders, anything that you've learned there?

Joe (00:12:22) - I'd like to say there's a Udemy course I could point you to, to answer that question. Maybe we can create that after the podcast. I think it came just from practice. I mean, I started working at a much younger age for a family business.

Joe (00:12:35) - So talking with people was something I've had very early on. So “here's Mr. Jones. Mr. Stranger. Go, go talk to him.” So you had to eliminate that fear, understanding what they're looking for in the MBA that we're talking about. You know, very much they criticized every single word on every single presentation to understand. Is that a good word? Is that a bad word? Is it too long, too short, too complex, too simple, too flowery? My words are flowery. I'm not sure exactly what they meant, but they were too colorful, I guess. So I think I've been fortunate to have a lot of critical looking into the English and to how that was communicated through education and just through talking to different people, seeing their facial expressions, seeing, you know, whether they get you or don't get you. So I think just talk to as many people as you can, you know, do writing, do exploratory research, and just kind of see what gets conveyed.

Ariana (00:13:24) - Mm Yeah. I also immediately think of global teams, right? Like, words are even more important. Understanding those words and having a common language, even if, you know, we aren't speaking the same language, you know, those things are just something that you really have to refine and think about constantly as a part of your journey and operations and your skill set. It's really interesting.

Joe (00:13:46) - I think the global aspect is even more key because even when you're interviewing folks, you have to be able to ensure that they can work in a global environment. They can't just say they work in a global environment. So if you have 2 or 3 main centers of operations, have the person interview someone in each region, be sure that they can have a conversation. Because one person can’t always tell that, you know, you have to be able to ensure that they're going to get along and gel with that company culture regardless of what region that culture is in that day.

Ariana (00:14:12) - That is such a great point. I'm going to take that pro-tip where if you are interviewing somebody to work with the global team, how are they able to translate how they're talking and communicating based on different team members and being able to switch those hats? That is really a really good one. I'm stealing that one. Now, I have a question on process. The final piece here, which is, I guess a question, maybe it's a controversial question, but I feel like people equate operations to process. Do you think that is true or fair? What do you think?

Joe (00:14:46) - I think it's true. I think I think some people could equate operations to the same way they equate lawyers. We are the blockers. We are the ones who prevent you from doing what you want to do to make you happy. And we try very hard to not be the blockers. You know, we say no because we love you, because we want you to not step on the fire of coals. You know, it's out of love. You know, it's not out of, you know, just pure misery. And that's part of that conversation, you know, letting people know the reason you're doing something. There's an actual reason for why we say no. And we also should say not “no” hard stop, period. But “no, we can do this. We can get there together by making these modifications, by looking at these things” And that's where I think we can start to change that conversation. But it's a lot of work, you know, when we're in an operational position and you're mentioning that plethora of roles, of responsibility, we're not looking at the ask in terms of yes or no. We're looking at the ask in terms of, well, how does that affect sales or contracts or legal or investors of funding or marketing or finance or operations or compliance or security or government work. Like we have all these things we have to ask about. So we might take longer to answer a question, and then our answers might be more detailed than you really want. And in that way people could, you know, be rubbed the wrong way. But we have to let them understand that this is all for the betterment of the mission.

Ariana (00:16:03) - That actually picks up on something that you see in meetings where you just see the glaze like I'll be talking and all of a sudden I'll just see somebody's face kind of glaze over.

Ariana (00:16:12) - And it's like, that's also a challenge for communication standpoint. Like I sometimes need to just take the time to go aside and actually be able to simply translate my feedback or the decision in a way that makes sense without all the other details. Like, you know, as an operator, we do have to run it through the gamut. We have to look through the entire end to end operations and think about how decisions are going to affect all those things. But you're right, that's not everybody's interest. I will say it was hilarious the other day. My husband created a process map. It was like one of his first process maps, and I had the reverse experience where he was talking about this process map. There were like a thousand arrows and I just glazed over and I was like, I think you’ve fallen into the operator's problem here. You understand it perfectly, but you lost me. That is just such a key thing to think about. It was hilarious.

Joe (00:17:06) - When you start creating a process map to a list within the family relationship, you know, you sort of went off the deep end more so, you know, your little ones do the same thing. So we have, you know, I'm making breakfast, my little one, and there's only so many things you can do for breakfast, You know, when your little one by themselves decides to make a list of the order in which breakfast occurs and how you rotate, you know that the DNA is definitely yours.

Ariana (00:17:30) - Like we all need an image. Can you please post an image of this that's too precious? It better have been laminated. I've got to say.

Joe (00:17:37) - I haven't introduced laminate yet. I don't want the sickness to go too far.

Ariana (00:17:42) - Yeah, laminate is label makers. Like, let's not go there quite yet. Wait, wait. We got to wait till they're double digits. You know.

Joe (00:17:48) - There is a label maker, but we keep it on a high shelf.

Ariana (00:17:52) - Oh, I see. I see. So let's talk about the inside scoop now, because, you know, you and I live and breathe operations, but people who are not necessarily in it, you know, some people get it wrong. Some people don't really understand it. So I want to break that down for others. I think the first question is, what do you think people get wrong about operations? And I'm super curious because you have approached operations through a lot of different lenses. So, you know, what's the commonality there? What do you think that people just don't get?

Joe (00:18:23) - I think the challenge is that there really is no good definition, and that happens with many roles these days. So if I look at across 5 or 10 or 50 companies, you'll have buckets of what they do, but they're all going to be a little different. So I like calling it the kitchen sink role, which doesn't maybe help us, I'm not quite sure, but everyone's kitchen sink is different. Some are nice and tidy, some are really messy, some are overflowing, some are small and large.

Joe (00:18:45) - But we do whatever is needed for the company at that particular time, during that particular day to move forward. And then that's going to change every single day. So I think I think it's different. I think that makes it hard to define. But essentially I call ourselves like we're the nuts and bolts. We do all the work that doesn't have an exact name. You have a problem. We're here to solve it. You need an ambulance. We're going to drive the ambulance. You have a fire. We're going to bring the fire truck. You need to have a doctor. We're going to bring the nurse. We just solve problems.

Ariana (00:19:11) - Yeah, We're the ones that you want to keep on speed dial. We'll put it that way. We should be on your favorite list. So what do you think is the hardest part about that? I mean, gosh, there's a ton from my experience. But what do you think rises to the top?

Joe (00:19:27) - You know, I think maybe expectations internally. As operators, we like to be able to predict the future and understand how to mitigate risk. But you don't always get to do that. So when a decision is made that, yes, we respect your information, we respect your analysis, but we can't go that way, then the question is, well, how do you manage in your position knowing that that risk will come? So if you believe yourself to be true and you believe your information to be accurate, but you cannot act on it properly, then how do you make the best of that world going forward?

Ariana (00:19:59) - Wow. Yeah. I think the hard part is how much those change you know I will set out with my week looking a certain way and then within like a half hour it completely changes. And that is I feel like something that is maybe I feel like we're always chasing our tail in operations where we sort of set these expectations of how we would like it to go. And then obviously reality happens. But the tricky part is that we have, you know, our hands in so many different aspects of the business to connect them, that it is that domino effect.

Ariana (00:20:34) - It can be really difficult. And then, you know, if one thing changes, you have to let 4 or 5 people know. That is definitely a tricky one.

Joe (00:20:41) - Yeah. I also think for me, I mean, write everything down. I mean, when I'm on a call with someone, I have my own personal notes, I'm taking notes of what's important and I'm keeping a tasks list and Asana. You just kind of record all the details you possibly can so you can look back at later. You may never look at it, but if you have to, you'll definitely be happy that you did.

Ariana (00:20:59) - Oh, AI transcript has saved my life in the sense that I still write my own notes. But I knew that that tool was something I could really use when I had written action items after a meeting. And then I had AI generate a list of action items and it had missed two or it had gotten two that I had missed. And that's when I knew, okay, this is a very complimentary tool because you're right, it's just there's no way to track it unless you have it somewhere for yourself.

Ariana (00:21:28) - But also with I mean, thank God it just has made my life a lot easier to be able to understand what's going on.

Joe (00:21:34) - It is very cool, but I'm also a little scared. So every conversation that you are with a vendor, with a client, you don't really know if they're using that. So in the past you have a conversation in person and you're like, okay, well I said something wrong, we're going to move past it. Then you have video and you're like, Well, maybe the recording it now you're like, They know every word I said and we'll go back and look at it. So it's almost like in a constant state of surveillance, for better or worse.

Ariana (00:21:56) - Yeah, it is. That was a big problem I had for a long time. I'm not a fan of getting on a call and people automatically recording it. I'm like, you should always ask for consent before recording, you know? And I know that legally there's not that right. Some people have like, you know, one-party consent laws. I get that. But I just think that you need to start approaching it that way. On a personal level, I don't want to automatically if I don't know you, then be recorded, you know what I'm saying? Like there is that data privacy and knowing who has what about those conversations? That is a very hard double edged sword. Technology is always a double edged sword.

Joe (00:22:31) - It is. We just assume that everything in our lives will now be recorded from this day forward.

Ariana (00:22:35) - Yeah, yeah, that's the truth. So let's talk about the joy of operations, because we wouldn't ultimately do it if it was only a pain in the butt, right? So what would you say is the thing that gets you excited when you wake up in the morning about being an operator?

Joe (00:22:52) - I think it's getting I'm going to go back to the computer science part here is that when you start in those days, you know, I enjoyed building that mental map in your head, This is how I want this thing to be like.

Joe (00:23:01) - And we're going to work to architect it to build this, you know, with ones and zeros. But it's going to be something that's built. Operationally speaking, we're doing the same thing. We would like a company to be structured like this. We like people to collaborate like this. We'd like tools to talk like this. So when you get to wake up and get closer to that goal of seeing those efficiencies happen, of seeing those changes manifest themselves, I think that's a fun part. You know, you might be looking back and say, I started that two years ago. It took a long time, but you know that you got there for a particular reason and you got to see that particular change, you know, actually happen in real life.

Ariana (00:23:33) - There is that, that they just say take one foot in front of you, right? And I feel like with operations, you're like taking a lot of little tiny steps. And it's not until you look back and you see the change that has been affected from what you wanted to where you are. You know, a year from setting that out, then you start to really understand how much impact has occurred in the work that you've done.

Joe (00:23:54) - I was having a similar conversation the other day and thinking about, you know, it's talk about the customer and how can things affect the customer conversation and making them happier. You know, that can go right back to IT.. Let's say you're a new employee and you need to do something for a customer. You don't have access to that tooling. How do you get access? Can you ask for it? Is there a ticket? Is there a process? Is there a lengthy experience to go through? Every decision that we make does eventually impact the customer buying your product. So you have to start looking at it not from just running the company and meeting the mission. It's you're really affecting that customer close and you're putting on that other hat into the conversation and that's how you can kind of also tweak things. And we're making you change this IT process because it will help you in this way or help you in that way. And that's where I think catering that story towards each group really helps kind of sell it.

Ariana (00:24:37) - Yeah. And you know, that customer experience totally reflects the internal experience too. It's all tied together and that ultimately is like how you build a culture, right? Your culture is not only reflected internally but externally. That was something I don't know if I've pieced together until, you know, maybe two years ago. I'm like, wow, if you don't have a good internal culture. You don't have a good external culture with your clients. It's just very hard to keep those two separate because they really influence each other. Vice versa, though, how you navigate with your clients. If you can think about that all the way through your internal ways of working, they really go hand in hand and become quite complimentary. You know, it depends on how all the technology and process and communications go together, but ultimately the goal is that they're harmonious and they work together.

Joe (00:25:24) - It is. I mean, at the end of the day were all here to sell something, to make people happy, to move something forward.

Joe (00:25:28) - And that should sort of be what's on our desk each day, right? We're here to do something better than yesterday.

Ariana (00:25:34) - That's that's the quote. I don't know. You're quite quotable. I feel like I've just been pulling out all these little things here and there.

Joe (00:25:42) - My language is flowery and quotable. I guess I’ll maybe add that to LinkedIn later.

Ariana (00:25:47) - Now I think people are listening to us…they hear your journey and they want to walk that path. How would you recommend somebody getting into operations and especially want to know? You know, a lot of us fall into it, so somebody is intentionally wanting to get into it. What could that look like for them?

Joe (00:26:06) - Yeah, my new belief on that is even look at this podcast, right? You know, we've created all this content in the last few years. This stuff didn't exist when we started. So there's just a plethora of information. You know, we could choose to spend our evenings death scrolling through a YouTube, you know, just kind of watching all random videos. Or maybe you could take 20 minutes to learn something that you have you think you have no interest in. Or maybe you think you have an interest in, just learn something, you know, take a look at it, listen to a podcast, a webinar or a video or some educational thing. Take a Udemy course and just kind of spot check different activities. What strikes your fancy? What do you think you're good at? What can you practice on? We're at a point with information, I think, where almost every topic is covered ad nauseam online in some actual high quality form that probably doesn't cost you much. So any age, any social status, as long as you can get online, that information is relatively democratized.

Ariana (00:26:57) - That's a really good point too, because it's also about microlearning. Like we can never stop learning. This is just what's happening and will be forever our situation as we grow. The interesting part is though, if you can just sort of take the doomscrolling, which I am definitely, definitely guilty of, and as you're consciously realizing you're doing that, just put something productive even for ten minutes a day that compounds every day. If you just take ten minutes to learn something new or deepen something that you already know, that ultimately is what gets you into either operations as a generalist, a specialist into some, you know, job title that doesn't exist today, but well, in five years, that's how it'll get to you to where you need to go.

Joe (00:27:40) - Oh, yeah. I mean, I'm going to date myself a little bit, but if memory serves me correctly, I was a cognitive science minor way back when. I think we read a paper about like Knowledge Workers or Knowledge Society by Peter Drucker. And that kind of goes into length about this type of thing, but from a much earlier point of view, and maybe that also set the stone for these little learning type activities.

Ariana (00:27:59) - Could you talk more about that?

Joe (00:28:00) - I just remember in the course again, it was ages ago just reading at length about how society has changed, how you are more of a knowledge society and how that has sort of transformed the way we think about things. So it's just sort of a different shift. You went from working with your hands to being knowledge, knowledge being the asset that is transferred between individuals. Knowledge is what can set different units or societies apart. It's just a shift in society.

Ariana (00:28:26) - So interesting. I want to dive into that more now. I want to go into a bonus question for those Secret Ops listeners who are extra jazzed about operations. And I wanted to pull in a question from your LinkedIn profile because I read it and I was like, Oooh, this is what I want to talk to him about. So on your profile, it says that you're the Swiss Army knife of executive functions, having served at executive levels across diverse departments. The Swiss Army knife of executive functions. I feel like, man in those seven words you really summarized what your journey is. Do you think that operators are just with army knives? Like do you think that all of us have to be that? Or do you think that's a choice to be that and then to specialize in other cases?

Joe (00:29:16) - That's a really deep question. I think it depends on where you're going to work and what you want to do. So you could be an operator focus on just one particular area and you could be excellent at it. Totally happy, and that's totally okay. You can also be someone who wants that fire every day or wants to have the hand in 12 different pots. Maybe you get bored. I think it depends on where you want to be. For me, I've kind of fallen into having all the different departments and it took a long time to kind of get those seven words to hopefully convey what I was hoping for. I think it depends on the person. Some people like to be focused on one thing with three things. Some people want to have a thousand things and that also could determine how you're productive. Some people are more productive with the more things they have. Their mind just works that way. They have one thing, the less productive they are. It's kind of reverse logic.

Ariana (00:30:00) - Um, that's a big debate because I feel like when I started on my own, a lot of people say you need to specialize and I 100% understand why specialization can help you.

Ariana (00:30:13) - But I also just internally resist it because I feel like if I specialize, I'm missing a whole other piece of what I could know to do this medium of of operations. And I like that big end-to-end kind of, you know, catchall Swiss Army knife that's like my vibe of operations. But I also think I do spread myself too thin at times and there's always that balance that's very hard to find the right equation.

Joe (00:30:41) - It is and I think actually bringing back memories for me, when I was making that decision to go for an MBA, a very high level manager at that time was very against it and said, Well, you're a computer scientist. Your next path is only a master's in computer science. You should not step into the other world. This is you belong in this world. So I guess you have to make that decision of where do you want to go in life? What do you want to do? What do you want to learn?

Ariana (00:31:03) - Yeah, there was for, I think a long time this idea that or I guess this I feel like it was pitched from generation to generation that a path should be quite linear. What wasn't really considered in that type of conversation was how technology would just change the access to learning. I mean, I learned my technical skills at a boot camp in three months, right? Like I learned fullstack web development in that, and my degree was nothing, nothing to do with technology, right? That is kind of the environment that we are in. If you go on YouTube, if you go on Udemy, if you go to all these different platforms, all of a sudden you have access, it can learn new skills and it doesn't have to be linear. In those options though it can be confusing to know what to do.

Joe (00:31:48) - It is. And actually I think you, you know, there's many communities out there and I'm also part of others that have the generalist title and I think it's a great title. I think the world needs to learn more about it. I think we're there yet where everyone understands what it is, but a question that they posed was, you know, years ago you asked your child, what do you want to be when you grow up and you expect a single answer? Are we going to make the physical change? Or we say, what do you want to be when you grow up? But it's okay to give me more than one answer. You could be two things. You could be three things. You could be five things. So if you change that mental from those early days, people will perhaps naturally want to take on more things which also make society better people smarter and more trained, more job-resilient. But I think it's a whole shift of mentality around where you want people's lives to go.

Ariana (00:32:28) - Totally. That is a really good point, is how can we encourage that at a young age to be interested in combining ideas and combining interests that you have? I mean, I think when I was a kid, you know, my mom had saved like those kind of questionnaires that you have and mine was like, What do you want to be when you grow up? And I think I said a teacher. The interesting part was, I'm not. I've never been a traditional kind of teacher, but this is kind of like teaching. I've done technology education, that's teaching, right? I teach operations internally that that thing that brings you joy can be threaded through a lot of different avenues and industries within your life. And if we start to give that optionality earlier on, I guess, how can that change the trajectory of someone's life? Probably in big ways.

Joe (00:33:14) - I would hope so. Just let them know it's okay to learn. It's okay to make mistakes. It's okay to try different things. Just experiment.

Ariana (00:33:19) - How have you found since I know you've got little ones, how have you found? That lesson to be acted in parenting. So, you know it, you're conscious of it, you've lived it. How have you tried to translate that?

Joe (00:33:35) - Yeah, and I've shared this one before. People take it in different ways, I guess. But I've always liked to explain why I'm doing something as if I'm explaining it to you. Another adult, not to baby it down. So you might have to explain it a few times, but I will go at length to explain why I made a decision or how I'm doing something or how I'm fixing something. Like, you know, does your two year old really care how you're fixing the plumbing under your kitchen sink? No. But maybe they're going to remember it, You know, maybe they're going to understand it, you know, Do they really? I'll even go and say, look, here's a five different types of USB and I'll point out each one and name them. Just kind of overly going through the different types of things. So they kind of are aware of things and they're hearing all this unique information.

Ariana (00:34:16) - Oh wow. What are the challenges that have ever arisen with that? Because I have nannied, I have done daycare, I have worked with children in a lot of capacities. And you get the why, like the why, the why, the why. Which is amazing until you can't really answer the why. Like it's so meta. They're like, what is life? And you're like, I don't know. I don't know. Like, how have you found that?

Joe (00:34:42) - It's okay. Except for, you know, where the tooth fairy comes from is a hard one, you know. How do they get in without, you know, setting the alarm off? And I'm like, that's a really good question. Now you know how alarms work. So those are the hard ones. The other parts are good, except that there I think the level of logical reasoning increases at a much younger age. So you see these children coming back with lines that are like, that's really correct. And really above your age. So we're just gonna have a smarter society. I think people are just going to learn more. We're going to pack in more knowledge before they even get out of high school.

Ariana (00:35:18) - Wow, that's so interesting. Thank you for sharing that. I'm always curious to see how you translate these things that you're learning within your career into parenthood because you learn these lessons and then try to apply it to your life. Even for myself, with my parents or even my dog, it's so funny trying to translate certain things, you know?

Joe (00:35:36) - What operational lessons do you provide your dog?

Ariana (00:35:38) - Oh my gosh, I will give one because I think that's only fair since I put you on the spot there. So for me, I think it is a great example. You know, we got our pup in 2020 as gazillions of other people did. So we definitely had that issue of leaving our dog at home because we were all quarantined inside. And then all of a sudden there was a separation anxiety. I think just like with operations, consistency is key. So we had tried to leave him at home and get him used to being at home by himself. But when we weren't consistent, there was just like, if we didn't do it every day, leave the house even for five minutes, it just would go crazy. And I, I think that it was until like a couple months that we just didn't have a pattern that we realized like, Oh my God, I'm such an idiot. Like I'm an operations person and I didn't even apply the “consistency is key” principle into my own life. And it was true once we did it had that consistent flow, had that consistent expectation and behavior. Like everything fell into peace in the way that it needed to. So that was like a lesson that I felt was right in front of my face and I just wasn't applying it to our own little dog, Luigi

Joe (00:36:44) - I like that. I'll even extract a lesson that “change takes time”.

Joe (00:36:50) - It's not–

Ariana (00:36:51) - Instant. Yes.

Joe (00:36:52) - Another t-shirt.

Ariana (00:36:53) - That is, that is it. And we run into a lot of other we're walking Luigi. We run into a lot of other dog owners on the street and they are having the same issues and we just say like it just takes time and it's painful to leave them and they're sad and you just gotta keep going. It's like the same thing with operations, like you're adapting a new process and it sucks and everybody hates it and then you're like a week or two and you're like, Oh, this is why we're doing this. And it all of a sudden starts to all make sense. Same thing with having a pup.

Joe (00:37:21) - Also helps to kind of point out all the pain points they had beforehand and promise, hopefully correctly, that those pain points will be gone.

Ariana (00:37:28) - Yeah. Yeah. The pain points definitely were the catalyst to getting our act together. So I guess that's something to note, which is like, what is your pain point and what you're trying to solve? I guess I got to do a user journey for our dog in that process.

Ariana (00:37:42) - Maybe that'll help other dog owners.

Joe (00:37:45) - Let me know how that goes.

Ariana (00:37:46) - I will. So let's wrap up with some rapid fire questions to know more about you as a human being. So I'm going to throw these at you and you just answer whatever comes into your brain. First one is what is your favorite part of the day.

Joe (00:38:02) - When the email goes to zero?

Ariana (00:38:04) - Oh man. Inbox zero. Yeah. So satisfying.

Joe (00:38:08) - Yeah, we strive. I actually take a screenshot of it. That sounds kind of nerdy.

Ariana (00:38:11) - Oh, just look in your photo album and it's just thousands of empty inbox pictures.

Joe (00:38:19) - It doesn't happen every day. No, no one's that consistent. But when it does happen, it's like, just a moment.

Ariana (00:38:30) - What book are you currently reading or what audiobook are you listening to?

Joe (00:38:36) - Ooh. It's always a hard one for me to ask because we read so much during the day. I don't really dedicate a separate reading time, but I try to be more active in communities and the random whitepapers that people send so they're short. You can read them fast. And as part of that continual learning, just learning random things, whether by product or technology or something else. So I just read random white papers. I sound.

Ariana (00:38:55) - Interesting. Is there a white paper that has stuck with you having read it?

Joe (00:38:59) - I will say actually on the operational note, there's another community operations nation that is creating essentially a book for chaos, and the first few chapters are out. I have read it. It is phenomenal. A little upset didn't exist when we were starting our journey. But for new people, I think they should check that out.

Ariana (00:39:16) - Yeah, I would agree. It's excellent and it's crowdsourced by a bunch of operational gurus. So it's so, so good. I wouldn't expect anything less of operators, but it still is really beautiful to learn and read. What is the best purchase you've made under $50?

Joe (00:39:35) - Okay. I don't know exactly how much it cost. I think it was under $50. I could be wrong, but purchasing a tool called Reclaim AI.

Ariana (00:39:42) - Why does that sound familiar? What does it do? I'm having a moment here.

Joe (00:39:46) - You can plug in multiple calendars to that system. You can have them sync in different directions, but change the content of the title so you can have like family privacy in a work calendar. You can also preset things you want to do each day and have the AI book it for you. So if you say, Hey, I need an hour a day of quiet time to get my stuff done, I don't care when it happens. It can book that for you. And then as your calendar changes, it will adjust that up and down, changing from free to a full lock.

Ariana (00:40:17) - Whoa. Pause. One moment. Can you also bring in Google calendars and Microsoft calendars to this tool?

Joe (00:40:26) - Definitely Google. I think they’re working on Microsoft, but I'm not sure if they got it yet. But I've been using it with Google calendars and I've abused it extensively. And for me that's saying something and it has done what I expected.

Joe (00:40:38) - So I'm happy. It may be more than 50, but it's definitely less than 100.

Ariana (00:40:41) - Oh, I'm checking it out, I.

Joe (00:40:42) - Think.

Ariana (00:40:43) - Pretty sure. Next one, which is your favorite quote or a quote that has stuck with you?

Joe (00:40:49) - Well, we'll go with John Wick. What is it? “I have served. I live to serve.” That's a new one. We'll go with that one.

Ariana (00:40:54) - Love John Wick. Ten out of ten. What is something that makes you little-kid happy? So whenever you do it, it just brings you just the most joy.

Joe (00:41:04) - Besides Inbox zero?

Ariana (00:41:06) - Yes. Clearly we have stumbled upon that.

Joe (00:41:10) - You know, when you have a long-standing task that was really important and you finally get it out the door and people actually like it. And you can press that complete button and you're and you're finished with it and you're like, We did that. We're done.

Ariana (00:41:24) - At this time in your life, what is the most important lesson you've learned?

Joe (00:41:30) - Patience.

Joe (00:41:31) - I think in an earlier day you could have taken things more personally. You know, business problems, situations, calamities. They had more internal upsets. I think eventually you age and you learn that it's going to happen regardless of how much you emotionally feel about it. Bad things will happen all the time. How are you going to handle it? How are you going to react? How are you going to solve it so we can have something negative occur? And that's just another problem to solve. So let's not get personally upset. Let's not get emotional. No screaming, no fighting, fist punching. Let's just figure out how we move forward. So just removing the not to be cold, but you're removing the emotion from it because it is just another business problem. And tomorrow, after we solve this, there'll be another business problem and we will solve that one too.

Ariana (00:42:15) - Last one for you, which is, what do you want to be when you grow up?

Joe (00:42:19) - Iron Man.

Ariana (00:42:22) - It's going to happen.

Ariana (00:42:24) - Just give them ten years. No, no big deal.

Joe (00:42:26) - So it's a really cool suit. I like building things. So just continually building and seeing companies grow and facilitating the intersection where operations, technology and strategy kind of meet.

Ariana (00:42:39) - Beautiful. Joe, if people are listening to you, they dig what you're serving up, where can they find you?

Joe (00:42:45) - Best place at the moment would be on LinkedIn.

Ariana (00:42:47) - Perfect. We'll drop that in the description. Thank you so much for your knowledge and for just being so generous, sharing your experience and your lessons and all of these wonderful operational taglines that we will use in different ways. We appreciate it.

Joe (00:43:01) - Thank you very much. I'm happy to be here and I hope those listening have picked up some nuggets that they can use in their own careers.

Ariana (00:43:07) - Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I do also want to thank the Secret Ops listeners. Please remember to follow us wherever you find your podcast and check us out at secret-ops.com We'll see you next time.